to disagree with gender ideology/pronouns

[changednameforthiss]

Genuinely don't understand why this is a controversial statement, but somehow we're so far removed from truth and reality, and saying there are no more than 2 genders is enough to get you fired from your job and cancelled forever.

I believe in man and woman as science dictates, and that's it. Why is that hateful? I am not hating PEOPLE for stating this, because I simultaneously believe in the idea that any adult should 100% have the ability and right to freely express themselves in ways that feel congruent with their inner. I also believe people can medically transition to appear as a woman/male if they deal with actual gender dysphoria i.e. genuinely loathe of the sex they were born it; and I believe people have the right to perceive themselves as a woman/man . However, that does not make you the opposite sex. This is a perception, i.e. it is subjective...

So if someone does not want to refer to someone as their preferred pronouns, it is rude at best, but it's certainly not criminal as many people try to make it now. Personally, I will call you by your preferred pronouns because I think it's just good manners, but I honestly don't think it's the truth and I don't think anyone is what their biology (thus hormones) would reject. But we are allowing this to happen and the topic of gender ideology is impacting and in some cases damaging our children who have to deal with adult topics they are wayyyyyy too young to comprehend, as well as women's safety by opening doors for biological men into women's spaces that should not be opened. This is a big problem!

Why is this so controversial? Can we not respect everyone and their right to self-expression and femininity/masculinity across sexes without changing our vocabulary to affirm people's self-perceptions as well as rejecting biology?

If you think I'm hateful, I beg of you please explain why because I'm not getting this and it's driving me insane.

100% this.

Couldn't agree more!

labelling a child a girl or boy at or before birth is also not a neutral act

You acknowledge that people have different types of body. ‘Boy’ and ‘girl’ are simply two of the nouns we use to describe those different types of bodies. That is a completely neutral act. (Giving concepts labels is what humans do- it is a fundamental of human language, obviously).

Extrapolating those labels beyond ‘type of body’ and into ‘behaviours, interests and character’ is what gender critical people want to see the back of.

Um, I wasn't actually being serious. Just couldn't resist it. 😂

But you could say GC feminists are appropriating feminism given that it was around decades before any of them were born.

@KattyBoomBoom95 By that logic second wave feminists were appropriating feminism from the suffragettes.

Young Christians are appropriating Christianity from their parents. Young left wingers appropriating left wing ideology from older left wingers, same for right wingers...

I don't agree with biological males competing in women's sports or getting dressed with them but likewise I'm not sure somebody should have to curtail who they are to avoid offending others.

What if we exchange the family upset that a man came out as trans for a family upset that a man came out as homosexual? Maybe his mother had a mental breakdown upon finding out her son was gay. Would we say he should've kept it in and tried to live as a heterosexual instead?

You seem to be repeating my point back to me. 🤣

The poster you were responding to was making the point that appropriation seems to be considered bad where race is involved but fine where gender is involved, which is oddly contradictory.

What point were you trying to make?

Well, non serious post was non serious but I guess I was saying that almost everything can be considered cultural appropriation if it's incorporating previous cultural ideas and repackaging them into a new movement.

Today's world is deeply postmodern (sounds a bit poncy to say but it's true) and I think it's hard draw a clear line. Can somebody call a white person out for having dreadlocks if they themselves practice yoga, eat Indian food, or have one of the eminently popular Japanese inspired tattoos?

Exactly, and it speaks volumes that the ideology captured students and lecturers at Uni of Edinburgh are having a strop about his appointment there.

If a family member comes out as gay, the rest of the family are not impacted at all (unless it’s a spouse of course!)

If one of my children came out as gay, I’d be pleased they felt able to tell me and look forward to meeting any future partners. If they announced a trans identity, I’d be extremely concerned about the prospect of puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and surgery, all of which carry risks to health. It’s not the same thing at all.

If my female child said she was male, that would be curtailing who she is.

it's not only that though is it? From what I have seen others describe it is also requiring you to go along with unreasonable demands about your history and future.

To go along with your point about a female child saying she is a boy you have to pretend that she is and was always a boy. If the child has siblings they have to pretend that they had a brother not a sister. This rewritting of history must be a headfuck to say the least. That's aside from the horrors of body modification surgery that your perfect child will probably want to put themself through.

So, no not at all like coming out as gay.

Exactly @lifeturnsonadime

Exactly. Plus the classic abuse/manipulation tactics brought into play and bolstered by info from likes of mermaids and stonewall, if you don’t go along with it they may mill themselves

Yes this part is absolutely dreadful.

Kill themselves I of course mean sorry

i broadly agree with this. I don’t agree that GC feminists can be said to be appropriating feminism just because they were born after its conception because I think that GC feminism remains true to what feminism has always been about; however I would say that modern liberal feminism has appropriated the word “feminism”, because it does not.

Postmodernism posits that everything is a power relation. There is truth in this but irony in its modern incarnation with men in dresses silencing women.

There were certainly men who objected to the “appropriation” of trousers. I don’t object to men wearing dresses and makeup per se. It’s the attempted theft of the word “woman” that must be resisted.

The word 'appropriation' is perhaps overused but it's worth reminding ourselves of the actual meaning of the word because there seem to be posts here misusing it.

It's about taking or using something belonging to someone else without their permission.

It's nonsensical for people to be saying children appropriate Christianity from their parents - they learn it with the parents full blessing, nothing is taken from the parents. Yoga isn't 'appropriated' - as far as I'm aware Hindus don't mind others benefiting from their practices, do they? Feminists now aren't 'appropriating' anything from our foremothers, we're continuing their work.

So, when it comes to gender... I wouldn't say males have 'appropriated' women's clothes, hairstyles etc. wtf are 'women's clothes' ... just clothes plus stereotyping. If you're 'gender critical' then you really don't care! Males should be free to wear what they want. But what some of them have appropriated - taken or used without women's consent - is our spaces and services. They've taken those podium positions and team places in sports. They've taken places on women's lists. They've appropriated the very word 'woman' , and 'lesbian',and some are trying to appropriate 'female' too.

Why are you attempting to leverage being same sex attracted which requires no treatment and is based on material reality, not based on making everyone comply to a philosophical belief with an identity that is based on philosophical belief and not material reality?

The two are not comparative.

I think this comment is one of those that grates the most with me.

I know several families who were/are very supportive.

It still has been like a grenade in the family and has more or less destroyed them.

People say 'but they are still the same person' accept the power dynamics in the family have completely changed and they are asking to be treated completely differently. And you can't carry on with the relationship as it was or in a gender neutral way (which you might treat anyone else). Nope you have to cater to a hyper gender stereotyped person and walk on eggshells the entire time. The fear and pressure to get pronouns right is horrendous.

The idea that family alienation is one directional is wrong too.

When my brother came out he was told by one of the then support groups that it wasn't uncommon for transwomen to be the ones to cut off their family, not the other way round because their family is the biggest reminder of the past and what they really are.

But the mantra from the modern support groups is that trans people are alienated by their families and they are vilified for it. This puts enormous pressure on families for various reasons. It means they can't be honest about their feelings - it's MASSIVELY taboo - because they fear the bigot thing. They also may see the cult like dynamics of trans activism so feel they have to go along and tolerate behaviours that are unacceptable because they are desperate to 'save' their family member.

The reality is that pronouns are not neutral. They form part of what becomes an abusive relationship.

I'm seeing my friend going through it at the moment and I've quietly said to a mutual friend that I believe their son will alienate his parents and use the excuse of not being accepted because of pronouns. My friend is totally accepting (to the point I frankly think her brains have fallen out) but at the same time I can see her brain ticking and her getting more and more upset by every time she accidentally gets his name or pronouns wrong and how he's shut her out totally and increasingly isn't speaking to her. She has been deeply upset by his behaviour.

This is it for me - the problems aren't about identity, they are about behaviours and expectations from others which are unreasonable.

This isn't even comparable to coming out as gay. And I think it's really naive, ignorant and offensive to suggest it is.

What if we exchange the family upset that a man came out as trans for a family upset that a man came out as homosexual? Maybe his mother had a mental breakdown upon finding out her son was gay. Would we say he should've kept it in and tried to live as a heterosexual instead?

Even the concept of 'coming out as trans' is very woolly. What does it actually mean? It's not coming out as another sex, as that's nonsensical.

Coming out as another 'gender' shouldn't make any impact on anyone else, as gender is primarily how you feel about social stereotypes.

Coming out as gender non conforming shouldn't be necessary - though perhaps I understand why people would want the family to be prepped if they're going to wear more female clothes or similar.

It feels like the concept of 'coming out' has been appropriated also. It's not the same process or conversation

I'm not sure somebody should have to curtail who they are to avoid offending others.

Has anyone said they should? A trans person should be free to be a trans person, they shouldn't have to hide their identity. The problem is that youngsters are being pushed to be someone they are not , ie a person of the other sex. They're not being encouraged to be who they are.

But this isn't about giving 'offense'. It's about infringing the rights of the other sex.

Hmm, not sure I agree. Some women would be gutted to know they're unlikely to ever have grandchildren tbf.