to disagree with gender ideology/pronouns

[changednameforthiss]

Genuinely don't understand why this is a controversial statement, but somehow we're so far removed from truth and reality, and saying there are no more than 2 genders is enough to get you fired from your job and cancelled forever.

I believe in man and woman as science dictates, and that's it. Why is that hateful? I am not hating PEOPLE for stating this, because I simultaneously believe in the idea that any adult should 100% have the ability and right to freely express themselves in ways that feel congruent with their inner. I also believe people can medically transition to appear as a woman/male if they deal with actual gender dysphoria i.e. genuinely loathe of the sex they were born it; and I believe people have the right to perceive themselves as a woman/man . However, that does not make you the opposite sex. This is a perception, i.e. it is subjective...

So if someone does not want to refer to someone as their preferred pronouns, it is rude at best, but it's certainly not criminal as many people try to make it now. Personally, I will call you by your preferred pronouns because I think it's just good manners, but I honestly don't think it's the truth and I don't think anyone is what their biology (thus hormones) would reject. But we are allowing this to happen and the topic of gender ideology is impacting and in some cases damaging our children who have to deal with adult topics they are wayyyyyy too young to comprehend, as well as women's safety by opening doors for biological men into women's spaces that should not be opened. This is a big problem!

Why is this so controversial? Can we not respect everyone and their right to self-expression and femininity/masculinity across sexes without changing our vocabulary to affirm people's self-perceptions as well as rejecting biology?

If you think I'm hateful, I beg of you please explain why because I'm not getting this and it's driving me insane.

The issue is, as I said above, is that the causes of male violence against women and girls are many and complicated. It's not complicated to ensure that women's single sex spaces stay single sex to protect women from violence and also to allow women dignity and privacy. I suspect every non-TRA on this thread would love to do more towards the cause of male violence in general. But its complex and very hard to address the root issues. This is a no-brainer. I don't understand why you would want to stifle discussion or progress in this issue by calling it a "distraction".

It seems an awful lot like you are out to protect men!

It takes roughly around 2 years for data to be collected and correlated and published, during which time the figures change. I promise you by 2026/7 you’ll see exactly the figures I’m talking about and then you won’t feel so high and mighty. I’m very passionate about what I do and the figures I work with, and very proud of the work I am doing to put the true figures out there.

Youre also totally wrong in your belief that all murders are public record, they’re not unless in the public interest and many times, they aren’t. Ongoing cases are also not allowed to be added to official data that will be published until fully investigated. But believe what you want, I know what I’m talking about! <3

I recently saw a form where the "Pronouns" drop down had no space for "prefer not to say" (which is my version of "you can go fuck yourselves").

The closest you could get was "any".

And of course you had to select an entry.

I wonder how many peoples cvs get tossed if they put pronouns down. And moreover how you would prove it ? (Or to reverse the question, I wonder how many peoples cvs get tossed if they don't put their pronouns down. And how would you prove it ?)

@Anitazmum if you're a 60s baby you'll remember that even ten years ago we had a tiny handful of men who were described as transexuals and then a much larger number of men who were cross dressers.

Transexuals were generally gay men who were unhappy with their male bodies and generally wanted surgery to remove their male genitalia.

Cross dressers were generally straight men who had a sexual fetish for crossing boundaries and wearing women's sexy clothes.

Where, in your opinion, are all the cross dressers now?

Any why do you think that the vast majority of transwomen today retain functioning male genitalia?

Right, so you’re not willing to share any evidence that backs up any of your claims, you just want me to blindly believe you? It’s not about feeling high and mighty, which is frankly a really weird take, it’s about being factual.

Stonewall believes same sex attraction is "sexual racism". That, is homophobic. It's clear you don't even know anything about Stonewall's stance on this. They are now a deeply, deeply homophobic organisation.

Biological males can still be women because gender is a social construct, not a biological state

We have words to refer to the male and female of most species, if not all, Stallion and mare (horses), dog and bitch (canines), cock and hen (birds) and so on. Man and woman are the words to refer to the male and female of our species. They are words relating to sex, not social roles.

Woman is a sex. Society may attribute sexist social roles to that sex, but you are a woman whether or not you perform that social role.

And that’s all fine @Anitazmum ppl should be free to dress how they want and call themselves susie rather than Malcolm if they prefer. More power to gender non conforming men - wear dresses, lipstick, heels, whatever you want. Absolutely no problem with it

however men however they present remain the sex they were born and as such do not belong in single sex places & spaces for women like refuges, changing rooms, courses designed to rectify the under representation of women, women’s sports or providing intimidate personal care to old ladies with dementia who have requested a female carer

it is ok for men not to have everything they want all the time

It feels clear youve never interacted with trans individuals if you view them in such a cold manner.

Do you honestly think other men accept trans women as men? Do you think they're safe?
They're attacked as often as we are by males.

I don't think anyone is arguing against this. Gender critical thought is that gender stereotypes are harmful and men and boys should be free to wear dresses and play with dolls. The issue we have is the belief that people can change sex and literally become a woman/man. And that when someone feels like a woman/man you must deny reality and accept that they have literally become a woman/man. This leads to all sorts of harm in society, like medicalising children, experimental surgeries, men in women's prisons, hospital wards and refuges. Yet it is gender ideology that reinforced stereotypes eg Timmy likes Barbie and pink so he must really be a girl trapped in a boy's body. No. Timmy is a boy who likes Barbie and pink.

it’s rare to see the same amount of posts up in arms about femicide statistics or domestic violence. In contrast I read too many posts on here from women who are wilfully married to actual abusers and rapists yet they ask things like ‘AIBU to not let my husband force me to have sex with him when I’m only one week post partum?’ or ‘Husband hit me but promised he won’t do it again, shall I leave him?’. It’s just crazy what people on here choose to focus on.

There certainly are threads about femicide and DV - but as I said upthread, they may generate less discussion because there's no controversy. That doesn't mean women aren't engaged in those issues.

And yes there are many tragic threads - on which, as far as I can see, the women receive a lot of support and practical advice on what to do to escape their abuser. Im not sure what your point is there tbh... are women only allowed to think about and engage with one thing at once?

Oh well that's a good argument made well...

How do you explain how some of the founders of Stonewall set up the LGB Alliance because they felt that Stonewall had become so removed from the interests of the LGB and were homophobic.

Tilts head.

Instead of loling perhaps you could form a coherent argument.

None of that makes them women or justifies increasing risk to women.

But they are men.

Is it women's fault if men are attacked by other men?

Why is it the job of women to solve? Why should women be used as human shields in this way?

And the mask slips...

Oh we’ve arrived at “if only you knew some trans people” stage. News flash we do. Many many women here are negotiating children insisting they’re trans or work with TW or TM

and are they bollocks attacked as often as women are. I’ve always thought it strange how TRA are just desperate for trans ppl to be attacked as much as women. You’d think they’d be happy that they’re not, that they’re not being beaten up regularly but it seems not

Lol, how sad. Two people who avoid answering questions.

I see. So your response is this hyperbolic misrepresentation on repeat.

Thank you for your lack of engagement and your unevidenced claims that you resort to emotional manipulative tactics to defend. I don't think your posts do anything to progress understanding of the group you seem desperate to defend to extreme measures.

And nobody is saying they shouldn't be happy. What we are saying is that their happiness shouldn't come at the expense of thr happiness for a much larger group of people.

Either the female sex is protected from sexism and discrimination, given the right to female centered healthcare, female services and female sports

Or

All the female sex gets is mixed sex options even if it means they can't then use them or are even endangered (mixed sex rugby anyone? Mixed sex prisons?) and society reverts to everything based on the default male and there is nothing you can do about it because the female sex is no longer legally recognized.

I am old enough to remember when there was an equivalence being drawn between gayness in males and paedophilia and predatory behaviour towards young boys. Parents thinking their boys would be at risk from gay male teachers. We have moved on from that thankfully, but I do think there is an equivalence between that and believing all transwomen are more of a threat to women than the male population at large.

I dont think woman who are born as women and trans women are exactly the same, but i do think they both deserve kindness.
medicalising children-The youngest medically transitioned person in the world was 16 last time i checked (and stayed trans). Theres nothing permanant done before a specific age.
experimental surgeries- Im not sure what this is reffering to, but i know it'd only happen to someone consenting.
men in women's prisons, hospital wards and refuges-This one im not so sure about. It'd have to be looked at case by case.
Ive definately seen some trans men whod be too beefy to be put in womens spaces. Itd make the ladies uncomfortable for sure.
Also some very small trans ladies who i think would be unsafe in mens spaces.
Really is person specific imo

This! Someone actually speaking sense on here.

There’s some nuance and context you are missing there, but honestly this reference is more tired and boring than the endless Kate Middleton threads.

That statement was ill advised from a political standpoint (It was made under provocation). But it is not homophobic, and did not mean what people have tried to manipulate it to suggest (eg that lesbians aren’t allowed sexual boundaries etc). it was made by an individual who is both a lesbian and someone who has dedicated her life to fighting homophobia and supporting lesbian, gay and bi youth.
stonewall is a leading charity supporting LGBT youth and I wager they know and understand a hella lot more about homophobia than you.