to disagree with gender ideology/pronouns

[changednameforthiss]

Genuinely don't understand why this is a controversial statement, but somehow we're so far removed from truth and reality, and saying there are no more than 2 genders is enough to get you fired from your job and cancelled forever.

I believe in man and woman as science dictates, and that's it. Why is that hateful? I am not hating PEOPLE for stating this, because I simultaneously believe in the idea that any adult should 100% have the ability and right to freely express themselves in ways that feel congruent with their inner. I also believe people can medically transition to appear as a woman/male if they deal with actual gender dysphoria i.e. genuinely loathe of the sex they were born it; and I believe people have the right to perceive themselves as a woman/man . However, that does not make you the opposite sex. This is a perception, i.e. it is subjective...

So if someone does not want to refer to someone as their preferred pronouns, it is rude at best, but it's certainly not criminal as many people try to make it now. Personally, I will call you by your preferred pronouns because I think it's just good manners, but I honestly don't think it's the truth and I don't think anyone is what their biology (thus hormones) would reject. But we are allowing this to happen and the topic of gender ideology is impacting and in some cases damaging our children who have to deal with adult topics they are wayyyyyy too young to comprehend, as well as women's safety by opening doors for biological men into women's spaces that should not be opened. This is a big problem!

Why is this so controversial? Can we not respect everyone and their right to self-expression and femininity/masculinity across sexes without changing our vocabulary to affirm people's self-perceptions as well as rejecting biology?

If you think I'm hateful, I beg of you please explain why because I'm not getting this and it's driving me insane.

Well you do seem to be suggesting that we shouldn't be so worried/focused in TW in women's spaces. Apparently because it "detracts" from the larger issue of violence against women. Which seems a very odd stance to take. Its also a lot easier to make women's spaces single sex than address all of the issues that cause men to be violent to women and girls. I don't understand why anyone concerned with violence against women and girls would argue AGAINST discussing women's single sex spaces. It doesn't make sense.

I actually think that allowing men under the guise of transwomen into womens spaces feeds directly into the increasing violence against women. It shows clearly that women don't matter, they have limited rights when compared to men, no man needs to take biological differences into account, women can't say no and if they do they should be shut down and harrassed.

If society shows so clearly that women matter less than men, then no wonder men feel free to hurt women.

There was research on village style changing rooms.

The number of incidents was absolutely huge in comparison to single sex facilities.

I'm sure someone will link to it...

There are lots of issues here with voyeurism too.

Keep in mind what we know about the number of women who don't report sexual offences and the culture of fear surrounding 'transphobia' and how women fear losing their jobs etc.

What's happening is women are self excluding. That in itself is a harm that isn't being measured and acknowledged because of its nature.

That's NOT ok.

This, why should females have to compromise on their privacy, dignity and safety.

Third spaces would be the answer, why are transwomen not campaigning for those?

The majority of attacks on women are not happening in toilets. Thatd be too simple. Theyre overwhelmingly perpetrated by cis men. Not trans people.
The population of trans people is not only shockingly small by comparison, but theyre getting attacked out there just like us.

By the way, I’m not out to protect men, I simply believe in facts. If you can prove your claim that 3-5 women a day are killed by their male partners in the uk, I would be horrified and would accept this as a fact, but I’m not going to believe it based on some random’s say so, when I’ve seen offical statistics that don’t back up what you’re saying. Same with the mixed sex spaces, if you can show me they provide no greater risk than single sex, that would be great news. However, I’m beginning to suspect you aren’t the expert you claim to be.

Lol to this entire, ridiculous post.

Especially to the idea that stonewall is homophobic.

I added my opinion to the OP's post and I am unwilling to defend the right of my loved one to exist any further. My family member deserves the right to exist and be happy - if you're unable to accept that and would rather force them to conform to your definition of what they should be, it says a lot about your moral compass and rest assured, they won't be forced into a miserable existence or even death as long as I have breath in my body.

What I’m saying is I see an entire board dedicated to trans hatred and women up in arms about changing rooms yet it’s rare to see the same amount of posts up in arms about femicide statistics or domestic violence. In contrast I read too many posts on here from women who are wilfully married to actual abusers and rapists yet they ask things like ‘AIBU to not let my husband force me to have sex with him when I’m only one week post partum?’ or ‘Husband hit me but promised he won’t do it again, shall I leave him?’. It’s just crazy what people on here choose to focus on.

Cis is an offensive term and not allowed under MN guidelines.

I added my opinion to the OP's post and I am unwilling to defend the right of my loved one to exist any further. My family member deserves the right to exist and be happy - if you're unable to accept that and would rather force them to conform to your definition of what they should be, it says a lot about your moral compass and rest assured, they won't be forced into a miserable existence or even death as long as I have breath in my body.

Agreed, but I think it's more about their need to control what other women see, and a desperate need to silence this issue. They are so, so, so determined that people not be aware of this issue.

Emotional hyperbole doesn’t wash on here Crisps. No one disputes that trans ppl exist - they’re bodies occupying time & space, they exist

they can also present in anyway they want

however they remain the sex they were born and at times that sex really matters

@Crispsandcola no matter how many names they call you , or wild accusations they hurl at your door, YOU are not the problem here.

I know you know that, but I just wanted to affirm it for you

💓

@Tandora Especially to the idea that stonewall is homophobic.

You mean the Stonewall that said excluding transwomen from your dating pool as a lesbian was just like racism?

Nancy Kelly called lesbians sexual racists, but sure, lol at stonewall being homophobic….

Have you read about the "cotton ceiling"? This is where Stonewall and others like them try to address the issue of lesbians not wanting to have sex with transwomen who say that they're lesbians. Lesbians are being excluded from lesbian groups because men are infiltrating them. Gay men and lesbian women are being called transphobic for not wanting to sleep with members of the opposite sex who claim to be homosexual. It's homophobic.

And I see @Crispsandcola is doing the toddler thing of sticking their fingers in their ears and going la-la-la

We get it, Crisps, you have no argument and cannot engage.

Completely agree.

entire board dedicated to trans hatred

Ah I've got it, you're an activist.

You don't care that women are put at harm by men being in our single sex spaces.

You don't care that some women are excluded by the presence of those men in our single sex spaces.

It took a long time to get there didn't it?

Here is another example of the methods used by the activists, this time deflection and distraction.

Sex attacks on women and girls are nine times more likely in unisex changing rooms.

The sad fact is that a large number of men (however they identify) are predatory. They are actively looking for loopholes to exploit.

Weird how TRAs go to "FiNd ThE eViDeNcE yOuRsElF" so quickly, with a swift follow up of "you bigots don't want trans people to exist"/some made-up trans suicide rate.

I would bet an absolutely enormous amount of money that there are vanishingly few people on MN who don't think all people, whatever their 'gender identity', deserve a safe, healthy, protected life in this society. But that doesn't also mean that people with penises (men, we call them) get to enter protected women's spaces just because of their feelings. Third spaces, I'll back them to the hilt! My belief that boys and men shouldn't be anywhere near the wards, cells, changing rooms, dorms, teams and shortlists of girls and women, regardless of the males' clothing and feelings about their own bodies, doesn't mean I want those people to "not exist".

It's all just massive egos flopping around, fed by social media and the navel-gazing/clout-chasing of modern tech. Cannot wait for it to be over, and us to focus on genuinely important and difficult things like climate change and global economic inequality (as well as fun stuff like enjoying pop albums without having to have NATO-like discussions about the oppression olympics).

Unisex changing rooms put women in danger (thetimes.co.uk)

Unisex changing rooms put women at danger of sexual assault, data reveals | The Independent | The Independent

One without a paywall.

Youll believe what you want to believe no matter what, but kids still end up trans without any external imput. Its clearly internal. Trans people have been around since before the internet. (i would know! 60s baby!)
The sex you're born into will likely dictate your social groups and the hobbies youre allowed to indulge in, so its understandable that kids who dont really gel with that might start thinking about alternatives. And wishing they could look different. Dress different. Be treated different. Have different friends.

Even before medical options were available, there were men who dressed like women and women who dressed like men!

And they did it for no reason other than in made them happy.