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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder what on earth some MNetters ever saw in these men?

211 replies

gothicomedy · 30/12/2023 11:30

I'm not talking about abusive and controlling bullies, who are cunning and well able to hide their true personalities before gaslighting women and separating them from friends and families.
But there are so many threads on here about spoilt, childish, selfish, lazy, prima donna partners and husbands sulking over this, that and everything, refusing to help with the children etc etc Surely they would always have been like this and didn't just change personality as soon as they got married or children entered the picture? Why on earth would anyone want to share their lives and take on huge joint responsibilities with these men? Some of the threads on here make for really depressing reads.

OP posts:
GreyCarpet · 31/12/2023 12:26

Have a choice obvs.

DecafOatMilkCappucino · 31/12/2023 12:52

I like the Shark Cage metaphor:

"The concept of the Shark Cage begins with the idea that the world is like an ocean, filled with fish of all colors and sizes, and there are also predatory sharks which are dangerous. In the ocean, the woman needs a ‘shark cage’ to protect her from predators, but allow friendly fish to pass through.

We aren’t born with our shark cages, our caregivers and others we come into contact with support the construction of our shark cage. Each bar of the cage represents a boundary or a basic human right, such as the right to not be touched, not to be shouted at or called names. Once the bars are in place, the cage provides a protective barrier making it difficult for sharks to get close enough to take a bite.

However, not everyone has had caregivers who knew how to help their child build a sturdy cage, and many women have shark cages with missing bars or a weak alarm system that needs some work. Importantly, the metaphor emphasises that it is not the person who is deficient, but it is their cage. It follows then that the skill of maintaining a robust cage (boundaries) is something that can be learned and refined."

I grew up in a very abusive and volatile home. Drugs, violence, police raids, psychological and sexual abuse were a normal and sometimes daily occurrence. When I met ex dp he was a like a protector come to save me from the big bad world. Sure, he was a stoner and had selfish, lazy tendencies but he never raised his voice, wasn't violent, didn't smoke crack upon waking and most importantly he protected me from other men. I honestly thought I'd found a good one.

It was mumsnet and reading about different types of abuse that finally made me realise that he wasn't in fact, a good one. He's a lying, selfish, lazy covert narc that almost broke me. I compare him to a black hole, beautiful and mysterious from a distance, but get too close and he'll suck you in and crush you. There absolutely were signs there in the beginning, but I thought his good points outweighed the bad. As time went on the bad points eventually outweighed the good and now the gloves have come off and he's gone full arsehole.

I know my example is extreme but I think it applies to a lot of bad relationships. So many of us grew up in dysfunctional households or had bad relationships modeled to us so we didn't see those red flags for what they were.

JadziaD · 31/12/2023 14:10

GreyCarpet · 31/12/2023 12:25

Often women hope someone will improve with time.

I agree but it is a choice to hope for that.

They could also__ choose not to hope for that and dump him long before pregnancy and single parenthood looms.

But some people are suggesting it's misogynistic to say women have a choose and could choose otherwise.

I agree that structural inequalities make it harder to leave once the children are there but having children, and tying yourself to someone in that way, is a choice.

I don't think it's misogynist to say women should choose better, I just like to look at it in the broader context (and I know you appreciate that as you've already said that in response to my earlier comments so not a go at you). It's not always as simple as that. Too often women don't even realise they have a choice or they're told they don't have choices or they're pressured into making the wrong choices.

I think the shark cage analogy above is quite an interesting one and it's really true - that these things have to be taught and too often they aren't. When SIL got together with (now ex) BIL, it was fairly clear to me and DH from pretty early that this wasn't a good relationship. But we were naive and stupid and we didn't understand the red flag signs - we just thought it was about incompatibility etc. Meanwhile, MIL and FIL were actively telling SIL that she should ignore her concerns. They told her that she needed to settle down, that she'd let multiple good men go (totally not true - only ONE of her previous boyfriends had actually been a potential keeper, but in their heads, any man is better than no man...), that she wouldn't be able to have children if she didn't stop being so fussy. They also are responsible for her being the kind of person who can be manipulated by using aspects of her own personality against her - she absolutely can be reactive and defensive. It is an extraordinarily irritating aspect of her personality. But they did nothing to help her manage it when she was young and to this day, it's still a reason to "beat her" and it's what exBIL did - "Ohhhh, she's so mean to me, poor me..." and he own family bought into it and agreed that SHE was the problem.

exBIL absolutely HATES me with every fibre of his being. The reason? I was the only one who stood up for her against him and he 100% blames me for the breakdown of their relationship. I lost my temper with PIL on a few occasions and pointed out a few home truths, which, backed by DH being a bit more reasonable with them, allowed them to see exBIL's behaviour for what it was. I'll never forget being incredulous at MIL because she was upset that SIL (her DD) was not preparing daily meals for BIL - she told me she might be old fashioned but she thinks it's nice if a woman cooks for her man..... but it literally had not occurred to her for one minute that she didn't expect the same old fashioned gender shit from BIL (who she wasn't even related to). So while she was complaining her daughter wasn't doing enough, she hadn't thought to be upset that BIL didn't earn much money or even work full time, that he'd never once done any of the "dirty boy" jobs that her DH and DS did routinely around their home etc etc etc.

heartofglass23 · 31/12/2023 14:11

This is why women should always continue to work full time after DCs.

Work for nothing, pay for ft childcare... anything but don't cut to pt/stop work.

LolaSmiles · 31/12/2023 16:19

DecafOatMilkCappucino
The Shark Cage analogy is good.

I think on the whole there's a lot of posters on Mumsnet who are good at supporting other women who may not have good shark cages to build one. The posters who encourage women to know their worth, protect their long term security, stop and think before having a baby with a reluctant partner, or run for the hills when there's bunting of red flags are worth their weight in gold.

It's difficult to do when there's always a loud minority who'll excuse poor male pattern behaviour or act like women are support animals for men or it's women's job to rehabilitate men. Sometimes I can't tell whether they do this because their own shark cages are poor or whether they'd rather defend shitty behaviour than acknowledge their partner isn't a very good partner.

Willyoujustbequiet · 31/12/2023 16:36

GreyCarpet · 31/12/2023 12:13

I think it's far more misogynistic to suggest women are always and only victims without agency who can't possibly make a positive choice or use their judgement of current or past actions to predict likely future behaviours tbh.

This would suggest that it is only the luck of the draw. And it's not.

Some men are arseholes. We don't have to date them, marry them or have children with them.

But far more men turn out to be arseholes when they didnt appear to be to begin with and we can't hold women (or men for that matter) responsible for not having a crystal ball.

People lie, they mask, they present themselves as one thing when they are another. It's textbook narcissism.

SusanKennedyshouldLTB · 31/12/2023 23:02

LolaSmiles · 31/12/2023 16:19

DecafOatMilkCappucino
The Shark Cage analogy is good.

I think on the whole there's a lot of posters on Mumsnet who are good at supporting other women who may not have good shark cages to build one. The posters who encourage women to know their worth, protect their long term security, stop and think before having a baby with a reluctant partner, or run for the hills when there's bunting of red flags are worth their weight in gold.

It's difficult to do when there's always a loud minority who'll excuse poor male pattern behaviour or act like women are support animals for men or it's women's job to rehabilitate men. Sometimes I can't tell whether they do this because their own shark cages are poor or whether they'd rather defend shitty behaviour than acknowledge their partner isn't a very good partner.

This. This again. And again this.

all the live long day this.

GarlicGiftsAndGlitter · 31/12/2023 23:27

Well ... one thing that hasn't been mentioned, but can't be that uncommon: I had an absolute car crash of a marriage with a man who'd light up the Relationships board with massive, neon flags. I didn't know just how bad he was, but I sure as hell knew there were issues.

Why did I do it? I was HYPNOTISED BY MY VAGINA Blush

Back when more of the threads used to be about full-on NPD types and psychopaths, it was widely accepted that many of them are really, really good in bed because it achieves exactly that effect. They gradually (or suddenly) stop making the effort once they feel they've nailed you down. Then you're left with nothing but the crap you were too orgasm-addled to care about when you should have.

Never let your fanjo make life decisions for you!

KimberleyClark · 01/01/2024 00:43

It’s certainly true that women are just as capable of thinking with their fanjos as men are with their dicks.

User135644 · 01/01/2024 09:10

Willyoujustbequiet · 31/12/2023 16:36

But far more men turn out to be arseholes when they didnt appear to be to begin with and we can't hold women (or men for that matter) responsible for not having a crystal ball.

People lie, they mask, they present themselves as one thing when they are another. It's textbook narcissism.

Everyone presents the best of themselves at the start of a relationship. I think couples need to at least live together for a while before kids are considered.

telestrations · 01/01/2024 09:39

It's seems most start off as decent with fairly equal relationships and then during maternity leave the woman starts doing everything, and that becomes and stays the norm even once she's back at work full-time. If she's PT or SAHP then it's entrenched.

I think it's societal, cultural and economic.

The woman's own expectations, pressures and standards of herself and by others to pull her weight and get everything right or even be perfect. The blokes sense of entitlement and resentment at being The Breadwinner, validation at work by other men (who have a vested interest in him prioritising work over family) and sometimes grandparents as well, with a genuine economic needs to perform.

The only soultion imo is for both parents to share parental leave

Willyoujustbequiet · 01/01/2024 09:58

User135644 · 01/01/2024 09:10

Everyone presents the best of themselves at the start of a relationship. I think couples need to at least live together for a while before kids are considered.

I totally agree.

I waited over 10 years after my marriage before having kids. Unfortunately it was the still trigger point for dv which I've since found out is very often the case.

Gettingbysomehow · 01/01/2024 10:13

I'm a strong independent woman with my own home and career yet I was blindsided by my husband. Everything started so well, it was amazing, our relationship was amazing, I didn't rush into anything. It was three years until we got married because I like to wait a good long time.
But almost as soon as we were married it started, the utter selfishness, the not working, the endless hobbies that excluded me, the sex pestering.
It was unbearable. We did 20 years and then I just couldn't take any more. It was such a massive disapointment. It would have taken so little to keep me happy because I'm such a generally content person but he couldn't even manage basic civility. never got a nice xmas or birthday present and the awful endless sulking.
I just don't know what else I could have done pre marriage to weed that out. Everything was wonderful before before I married him.
We had such a great future mapped out if only he had put in a tiny bit of effort.
I'll never have another relationship.

OverTheGrip · 01/01/2024 10:18

Because his controlling behaviour was initially seen as caring and kind and was then implemented so very very slowly and gradually that it took me years to even acknowledge it. Then, when I didn’t conform, he hit me.

OverTheGrip · 01/01/2024 10:20

Unfortunately, I can see the same happening with DD. I’m having to just watch and wait 😞

FayCarew · 01/01/2024 13:51

OverTheGrip · 01/01/2024 10:18

Because his controlling behaviour was initially seen as caring and kind and was then implemented so very very slowly and gradually that it took me years to even acknowledge it. Then, when I didn’t conform, he hit me.

Same here

GreyCarpet · 01/01/2024 16:34

Willyoujustbequiet · 31/12/2023 16:36

But far more men turn out to be arseholes when they didnt appear to be to begin with and we can't hold women (or men for that matter) responsible for not having a crystal ball.

People lie, they mask, they present themselves as one thing when they are another. It's textbook narcissism.

And no one has. Not on this thread anyway.

Lavender14 · 01/01/2024 20:46

Stop👏 blaming 👏 women 👏 for 👏 men's👏 shitty👏 behaviour👏

People change, People start taking each other for granted and get complacent, sometimes there's 3 sides to a story - his hers the truth, and sometimes people just are really good at seeing the best in others and that's used against them. Doesn't make it the womens fault for picking them..

LolaSmiles · 01/01/2024 20:59

Lavender14
Women aren't responsible for men's behaviour.I don't think many, if any, people have said that on this thread.

Women are responsible for women's behaviour, so whilst some men do change (as many people have said), when there's red flags everywhere it's reasonable to suggest women consider their options.

If a man:

  • is lazy
  • doesn't pick up after himself around the house
  • prioritises his friends / hobby / gym / gaming / drinking over his partner
  • is selfish
  • has an unhealthy attitude to money (eg what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine)
  • is very selective on his traditional values (eg wants female partner to stay home when they have kids in future, but also making every excuse under the sun to avoid marriage that will recognise her household contribution and seems to have no issue with babies or of marriage / traditional in that housework is women's work but also expects partner to work and be 50-50 financially)
  • has children he doesn't see
  • has children he hardly sees
  • has children he doesn't financially provide for
  • has children he provides the bare minimum for financially
  • has a long list of stories about ex girlfriends who were "crazy"
  • is moody and sulky
  • holds grudges
  • love bombs after arguments
  • leaves you feeling like you're treading on eggshells
  • complains about your friends and family over tiny things
  • has a poor job history or is regularly leaving jobs or getting sacked
  • is a drug user or has an alcohol problem

He is 100% responsible for his behaviour.

As women we get to decide whether a man with a high number of those features is a great person to have a relationship and baby with.

missmollygreen · 01/01/2024 21:05

Willyoujustbequiet · 31/12/2023 16:36

But far more men turn out to be arseholes when they didnt appear to be to begin with and we can't hold women (or men for that matter) responsible for not having a crystal ball.

People lie, they mask, they present themselves as one thing when they are another. It's textbook narcissism.

Or maybe we only hear one side of the story here in the mumsnet echo chamber

Willyoujustbequiet · 01/01/2024 23:14

missmollygreen · 01/01/2024 21:05

Or maybe we only hear one side of the story here in the mumsnet echo chamber

I'm not sure what you mean.

The statistics on dv are clear. It's a gendered crime and 96% of defendants at court are male.

90% of child support debt being chased for non payment is from men.

It's not just one side of the story, it's objective fact.

User135644 · 01/01/2024 23:31

Willyoujustbequiet · 01/01/2024 23:14

I'm not sure what you mean.

The statistics on dv are clear. It's a gendered crime and 96% of defendants at court are male.

90% of child support debt being chased for non payment is from men.

It's not just one side of the story, it's objective fact.

Men don't tend to report DV, so it's far less likely to end up in court.

GreyCarpet · 01/01/2024 23:32

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/4749407-men-and-early-days-dating-being-arses

From 'similar threads' ar the bottom of the page.

Women congratulating themselves and each other on how they have stayed with men who behaved like dicks at the beginning.

I've only skim read the first few posts but it's a fucking depressing read! I can't help but wonder how many of them have actually completely changed and how many of them have just got better at hiding it.

This is what most posters are referring to. Not the ones who keep their nasty side hidden until she's barefoot, pregnant and on maternity leave

Men and early days dating, being arses. | Mumsnet

Is it just me, or has anyone noticed a pattern with men in dating / boyfriends? That they f*** up in the early days, play around a bit behind your bac...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/4749407-men-and-early-days-dating-being-arses

Windthebloodybobbinup · 01/01/2024 23:41

Go into any kids clothing shop and look at the messages to girls on tee shirts- be kind! Be nice!
One of a million messages girls get from day dot to pull the wool over their eyes.

WandaWonder · 02/01/2024 03:58

LolaSmiles · 01/01/2024 20:59

Lavender14
Women aren't responsible for men's behaviour.I don't think many, if any, people have said that on this thread.

Women are responsible for women's behaviour, so whilst some men do change (as many people have said), when there's red flags everywhere it's reasonable to suggest women consider their options.

If a man:

  • is lazy
  • doesn't pick up after himself around the house
  • prioritises his friends / hobby / gym / gaming / drinking over his partner
  • is selfish
  • has an unhealthy attitude to money (eg what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine)
  • is very selective on his traditional values (eg wants female partner to stay home when they have kids in future, but also making every excuse under the sun to avoid marriage that will recognise her household contribution and seems to have no issue with babies or of marriage / traditional in that housework is women's work but also expects partner to work and be 50-50 financially)
  • has children he doesn't see
  • has children he hardly sees
  • has children he doesn't financially provide for
  • has children he provides the bare minimum for financially
  • has a long list of stories about ex girlfriends who were "crazy"
  • is moody and sulky
  • holds grudges
  • love bombs after arguments
  • leaves you feeling like you're treading on eggshells
  • complains about your friends and family over tiny things
  • has a poor job history or is regularly leaving jobs or getting sacked
  • is a drug user or has an alcohol problem

He is 100% responsible for his behaviour.

As women we get to decide whether a man with a high number of those features is a great person to have a relationship and baby with.

Yes each individual is responsible for their own behaviour but each individual is responsible for not putting up with it or having a child with someone not suitable

And for women never do wrong how many people complain about their childhood and how bad their mothers are?

And how many men have children with multiple partners yet keep on getting women to keep on having children with them for them to move on to the next one, then the cycle continues.

Both parents are responsible for the environment they have children and raise children in