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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder what on earth some MNetters ever saw in these men?

211 replies

gothicomedy · 30/12/2023 11:30

I'm not talking about abusive and controlling bullies, who are cunning and well able to hide their true personalities before gaslighting women and separating them from friends and families.
But there are so many threads on here about spoilt, childish, selfish, lazy, prima donna partners and husbands sulking over this, that and everything, refusing to help with the children etc etc Surely they would always have been like this and didn't just change personality as soon as they got married or children entered the picture? Why on earth would anyone want to share their lives and take on huge joint responsibilities with these men? Some of the threads on here make for really depressing reads.

OP posts:
Mirrorballsocial · 30/12/2023 14:56

arethereanyleftatall · 30/12/2023 11:42

Because for the many many women with low self esteem who have been socially conditioned to believe it, having a man, absolutely any man, means they've 'won'.

I think this is so true. I don't think it's true that many don't start that way or have significant red flags. Teh relationships I know that have problems or have broken up all had problematic behaviour early on.

But I do feel this behaviour is largely normalised, women are made to feel hysterical if they react to small things (which will turn into big things). I think a lot is low self esteem, but also even without that the social conditioning is very real.

Mirrorballsocial · 30/12/2023 15:00

Kwasi · 30/12/2023 12:37

When DS was born, literally nothing changed for my husband. DS is 5.5 now and two weeks ago was the first time I was 'allowed' to leave him with DH while I went to the supermarket.

Sounds like you should have divorced him about 5 years ago then. Why would you possibly continue to put up with this and stay married? Is it not just massively unappealing?

Daleksatemyshed · 30/12/2023 15:15

Much as I'm usually firmly on the side of the women with rubbish DP/DH's there are posts where I wonder what possessed them. Men who take drugs, who drink too much, who spend every penny they earn on their hobby, who have children with multiple women and the woman thought when they had a baby together it would be different. Usually the man says he'll give up his bad habits and low and behold, once she's pregnant nothing changes. I'd like MN to head up every page with" Words are cheap, actions are what matter "

C1N1C · 30/12/2023 15:28

Marrying the hot, charismatic alpha male, who thinks they're God's gift... only to find out those men think they're 'above' this sort of work, and that it's a woman's job?

Usually the same people who have friend-zoned the actual nice guys who might not be a '10', but then complain later in life when these nice men have gone on to marry less shallow women. These men are then appreciative of the attention, and as such, actually put effort into the relationship...

To continue the theme of this post :)

LlynTegid · 30/12/2023 15:31

It is not that hard for someone to put on a front for a few years and then revert to their old self. Same as those who are good people at work until they have worked for two years and have employment protections making them more difficult to dismiss.

Or say that they have changed and someone believes them, putting their historic behaviour before the relationship down to youth or their former wife/partner.

James Cleverly presumably did not make any date rape 'jokes' before he married, for example.

BertieBotts · 30/12/2023 16:09

If you have good role models perhaps it's hard to understand but some of us grew up with very few positive male role models. My idea of what men are like was based on teenage boys at school (mostly awful), my dad (he's OK but I didn't see him very much and I don't think I ever really saw him doing housework), some of my mum's friends (only ever saw snapshots; adult men don't usually befriend teenage children of their friends), my uncle (violent and abusive), my grandad (old fashioned, sexist, though he did take over cooking and cleaning when my grandma got ill).

My mum had been in loads of abusive relationships so only had horror stories about men, which I took for granted (and honestly, I think so did she. I don't think she has high expectations of men. She is constantly amazed if I say anything about what DH is like.)

Society gave me the message: Men are useless/lazy with housework and have to be nagged constantly. Men are hopeless with babies/children. In fact they don't really even want babies or children, like women do. Men are emotionally stunted, and deal with emotions via aggression. Men don't understand or empathise with women. Men find fart jokes funny and like sport and gaming and star wars and superheroes, they definitely don't like the things you like, so you'll never have common interests. Men are constantly gagging for/obsessed with sex and "need" it, very visual, any time they see women it makes them want sex, it's unfair to tease them, OTOH you can use this to manipulate them, it's basically your only advantage so might as well use it. So empowerfulising!!!

I really had this impression that men are basically an entirely different, mysterious species, that you have to relate to in a wholly different way to how you relate to women, and they were basically all a bit shit so it was unfortunate because if you were attracted to men you had to put up with a load of crap in order to get the good parts of a relationship. Weirdly I did actually know I was attracted to women as a teenager but hardly anyone my age was out back then, so I didn't really consider dating girls as a realistic possibility.

My mum also used to rave about books like "Men are from Mars" which did not entirely dispel the myth.

Because I had such a low bar for men in general I tended to think if I met someone who was tidy, OR who wasn't constantly burping/farting/obsessed with sport, OR who showed a genuine interest in having children (etc) that this was some kind of special rare unicorn, the idea of looking for all of these things in one man just never even occurred to me that it was possible, it didn't compute.

Also, first teenage boyfriends, you don't think about housework etc at that age. And I was fairly messy and lazy at that age too so it was actually fairly likely that most boys were tidier than me Blush

But also I have observed that a lot of people in general, when they are young they throw their clothes on the floor and they go out drinking and they eat crap and they smoke and they have unproductive hobbies and they might take drugs on occasion etc. But I can't think of a single female friend who has stuck to this past about their mid twenties. They settle down, they get more grown up. I think that because women often do this we sort of assume that men will do this too - but they don't seem to do it in the same way. I do know men who went from the loud, lazy, laddish type to a decent, kind, grown up adult - but the vast vast majority, they either don't do this at all and stick with the student type habits all their life, or they change in response to a female partner because she doesn't put up with it. Or they were never like that at all in the first place.

In fact this is going to sound absolutely neanderthal Blush but I think National Service really fulfilled this role well for a lot of men of my grandad's generation. Having that experience of the army discipline really instilled in them a sense of morality about laziness, cleanliness, tidiness, manners etc.

BertieBotts · 30/12/2023 16:20

James Cleverly presumably did not make any date rape 'jokes' before he married, for example.

I don't know who he is so unsure of the context of this. But every single man I knew in the 00s made date rape jokes. That was "how men talk". Objecting to date rape jokes made you "not a cool girl" or a "humourless feminist".

TerrysChocolateBorangejuice · 30/12/2023 16:32

Women are taught from birth that it’s our job to let men do what they want.

No they aren't.

I wasn't, my mother wasn't, my daughter wasn't, my grand-daughters aren't and none of the women in my (or my husband's) family were either.

Rocksonabeach · 30/12/2023 16:42

BibbleandSqwauk · 30/12/2023 12:12

@SusanKennedyshouldLTB loads of women post on here saying that their partner absolutely was fine pre children, or if they were a bit lazy and selfish, so was the woman..being double income no kids is a great lifestyle. You can game or cycle or go to the gym 5 days a week. Hypothetical conversations about how things will change are easy and for whatever reason, probably the enforced changes during pregnancy these changes come more easily to the woman. It's wrong to blame woman for assuming their partner, with whom they have chosen to settle down with, won't change and adapt as they are. How about we blame the men for not stepping up?

Mine started off complimenting me on my independence and career etc and stepped up rapidly and also had his own hobbies but for example my ex was a keen cyclist and he said he would take a step back once children were in the picture and even said this to everyone at his club and his parents. Baby born and me very ill but he then gave me a choice I could go out to the gym or he would as we both didn’t need to be there. So every night he was out training I didn’t want to and never had - at the weekends the argument was always he’s worked hard all week so wants a long bike ride Saturday am and Sunday am - that me doing all the childcare. After a 4 hours bike ride each day on the weekend he then wanted to clean his car, prepare work for the following week or …. Relax but certainly not do family stuff. He liked the idea of being in love, married, having a family …. But it wasn’t something he could do. I do think most men don’t realise what a slog it is and how much grunt work goes on

maddiemookins16mum · 30/12/2023 16:43

I agree some don’t start out like that. However there are some women who unfortunately (for many different reasons) would rather just put up with having a Cocklodger husband/partner than being single, especially as they get older.

GreyCarpet · 30/12/2023 16:48

TerrysChocolateBorangejuice · 30/12/2023 16:32

Women are taught from birth that it’s our job to let men do what they want.

No they aren't.

I wasn't, my mother wasn't, my daughter wasn't, my grand-daughters aren't and none of the women in my (or my husband's) family were either.

Funny thing is, my grandmanwas very independent and raised my mum to be so.

Unfortunately, my mum disagreed and chose to he completely subservient to men. She tried (and failed) to raise me similarly. I have raised my daughter to he independent.

And that includes not letting men do exactly as they want.

arethereanyleftatall · 30/12/2023 16:49

TerrysChocolateBorangejuice · 30/12/2023 16:32

Women are taught from birth that it’s our job to let men do what they want.

No they aren't.

I wasn't, my mother wasn't, my daughter wasn't, my grand-daughters aren't and none of the women in my (or my husband's) family were either.

Then lucky you Terry's chocolate. But the point of this thread is that unfortunately many women are.

Suddenlychrimbo · 30/12/2023 16:52

Women at a certain point will ignore multiple red flags , if a man says he wants to start a family.

Sad but true.

VanityDiesHard · 30/12/2023 16:53

KimberleyClark · 30/12/2023 14:05

Unfortunately I think some women are prepared to overlook a lot if they are desperate for children. “ He’s not perfect but he’ll have to do because I want kids”.

God knows why. I think you're right but to me that is just so selfish. Children are a privilege, not a right. If you are in an unhappy domestic situation, why add children to that?

VanityDiesHard · 30/12/2023 16:53

arethereanyleftatall · 30/12/2023 16:49

Then lucky you Terry's chocolate. But the point of this thread is that unfortunately many women are.

Then they need to unlearn that and not be so passive. It isn't the 1950s.

Southpoint · 30/12/2023 16:57

I only really met my soon to be ex- husband when we started a family plus house renovations. Utterly hopeless and also grumpy if and when asked to do his bit. I realised he expected me to do all the work as his mother did. 🤢

Atethehalloweenchocs · 30/12/2023 17:09

There is that old saying (cant remember who it is attributed to) that men marry women thinking they will never change, and women marry men thinking they can change them. Some truth to it I think.

GreyCarpet · 30/12/2023 17:15

Atethehalloweenchocs · 30/12/2023 17:09

There is that old saying (cant remember who it is attributed to) that men marry women thinking they will never change, and women marry men thinking they can change them. Some truth to it I think.

I wouldn't even date someone hoping he'd change. I certanly wouldn't marry them.

All that saying does is underline how crap men are.

It might as well read, men want women to be 21 forever and women hope that, at some point, men will grow up.

We cant change men. All we can do is make positive choices for ourselves rather than suffering and complaining about it and seeing it as inevitable.
.

thisbetheverse · 30/12/2023 17:19

From personal experience I had very low self esteem when I first met him. Somehow managed to build more confidence in myself and also sites like mumsnet help you to realise there are better men out there

Deadringer · 30/12/2023 17:20

Traditionally women needed to attract a man to look after her and hang on to him at almost any cost, while this isn't the case any more there is still a 'pick me' and 'I am not like other girls/my mother/your mother' hangover from previous generations that means a lot of women will accept a fair amount of shit to keep a man, and if she bucks the trend and has the confidence to walk away she will likely be heavily criticised for it. And many men get worse after dc, their beautiful obliging sexy partner is suddenly a tired frazzled mother and they slink off, avoid doing their share and spend their free time watching porn.

SaltburnIsNotAboutTheBeach · 30/12/2023 17:35

But there are many women who have all the information they need about a man long before co-habitation, marriage or babies are on the cards and still continue with it hoping they'll change.

Having the information and being being able to recognise it for what it is are very different things though.

I’m not trying to make out that women are victims, not at all, but for too many of us our time to make a stand and recognise what our lives have become only comes later on. We make decisions as young women naively.

I didn’t understand that my father being a hard worker but a non present parent was even a thing until I was in my forties, when I had the blinding realisation that my ex was exactly the same. In my twenties I simply didn’t have the life experience or the knowledge to have any comprehension of this. My family set up was more or less identical to most others I knew - mother, whether she worked or not, was the one to sort out washing, cleaning the house, dealing with teen dramas, going to parents evenings, doing the shopping. Men doing these roles were hugely in the minority - why would anyone expect or imagine any difference when that was the norm?

There is maybe a more even split in household tasks than there was 40+ years ago, but it’s still very normal for women to bear the brunt of parenting, and very normal for men to be the secondary parent (obviously not counting the many Not My Nigels out there Hmm).

There’s a huge element of boiling frog going on too. When life becomes full of babies and the chaos that comes with that it can be impossible to see reality, or, once you can see it, difficult to gain control of the situation on your own.

It’s no surprise to me that around 70% of divorces are instigated by women.

MargaritaThyme · 30/12/2023 17:39

Because many women are desperate to have children and need to do so within a finite timescale, so they end up married to men who are not as keen on becoming parents as they are. And many men are ambivalent, at best, about having children but agree to do so to make the woman they love happy.

When children come along in such relationships, the man is often horrified by the realities & demands of parenthood and filled with regret so he deliberately takes a back seat and allows the woman to get on with it. After all, that is the mother’s natural role & it was her who wanted them in the first place, wasn’t it?

She becomes resentful of his lack of interest and the fact that the entire burden of parenting falls onto her while he selfishly goes off to work / football / the pub. After all, he did agree to becoming a dad, didn’t he?

GreyCarpet · 30/12/2023 17:39

SaltburnIsNotAboutTheBeach · 30/12/2023 17:35

But there are many women who have all the information they need about a man long before co-habitation, marriage or babies are on the cards and still continue with it hoping they'll change.

Having the information and being being able to recognise it for what it is are very different things though.

I’m not trying to make out that women are victims, not at all, but for too many of us our time to make a stand and recognise what our lives have become only comes later on. We make decisions as young women naively.

I didn’t understand that my father being a hard worker but a non present parent was even a thing until I was in my forties, when I had the blinding realisation that my ex was exactly the same. In my twenties I simply didn’t have the life experience or the knowledge to have any comprehension of this. My family set up was more or less identical to most others I knew - mother, whether she worked or not, was the one to sort out washing, cleaning the house, dealing with teen dramas, going to parents evenings, doing the shopping. Men doing these roles were hugely in the minority - why would anyone expect or imagine any difference when that was the norm?

There is maybe a more even split in household tasks than there was 40+ years ago, but it’s still very normal for women to bear the brunt of parenting, and very normal for men to be the secondary parent (obviously not counting the many Not My Nigels out there Hmm).

There’s a huge element of boiling frog going on too. When life becomes full of babies and the chaos that comes with that it can be impossible to see reality, or, once you can see it, difficult to gain control of the situation on your own.

It’s no surprise to me that around 70% of divorces are instigated by women.

But if he cheats on you, doesn't work, has kids he doesn't see from previous relationships, is an alcoholic, does drugs...

And there are a lot of threads on here by women who have chosen a man knowing he was like this from the start.

Some of the more subtle things, I can understand but these are fairly big things!

SparkleyMud · 30/12/2023 17:42

Surely they would always have been like this and didn't just change personality as soon as they got married or children entered the picture?

Mine was great when we met and were in love he was great with first born, sprung into action doing night feeds, cleaning house etc. Was OK with second born. Then his remaining parent died and he changed. He's been to therapy which has helped his stress levels but he's not in love with me anymore and has no motivation to care for me in the way he used to. We are getting divorced.

SaltburnIsNotAboutTheBeach · 30/12/2023 17:46

TerrysChocolateBorangejuice · 30/12/2023 16:32

Women are taught from birth that it’s our job to let men do what they want.

No they aren't.

I wasn't, my mother wasn't, my daughter wasn't, my grand-daughters aren't and none of the women in my (or my husband's) family were either.

Life often proves otherwise, unfortunately.

How many threads where girls in schools are expected to sit next to the “naughty boy” at school, in hopes of helping the teacher.

I don’t know one couple where the man does more than the woman in terms of parenting and looking after the house (I had a conversation in rl about this and a friend pointed out that she and her ex are 50/50 with their children, but she didn’t factor in that the children’s stepmother did the lions share of everything!). I’m sure there are some men who genuinely share the load, but I’ve yet to meet one. They’re a minority whatever.

I am the child and grandchild of very strong women, who did more than most women in their generations, but that doesn’t mean the burden was split any differently. The very fact that they did so well is a testament to how hard they worked, whilst still taking care of children and facilitating their husbands.