To wonder what on earth some MNetters ever saw in these men?

[gothicomedy]

I'm not talking about abusive and controlling bullies, who are cunning and well able to hide their true personalities before gaslighting women and separating them from friends and families.
But there are so many threads on here about spoilt, childish, selfish, lazy, prima donna partners and husbands sulking over this, that and everything, refusing to help with the children etc etc Surely they would always have been like this and didn't just change personality as soon as they got married or children entered the picture? Why on earth would anyone want to share their lives and take on huge joint responsibilities with these men? Some of the threads on here make for really depressing reads.

Surely they would always have been like this and didn't just change personality as soon as they got married or children entered the picture? Why on earth would anyone want to share their lives and take on huge joint responsibilities with these men? Some of the threads on here make for really depressing reads.

Two reasons

1. People put on their best behaviour at the start of any relationship. "Like me, like me". It's human nature. Women do it too. Have you never started a relationship in a sexy black basque and suspenders and a beautiful little lacy nighty and ended it in big cotton pants and comfy PJs?
2. Many many many women want a relationship at all costs - for many different reasons at different times of life. They really want children and have sunk costs fallacy about an existing relationship that isn't ideal. Social status of a couple. Not liking to be alone. Not enjoying a social life without a partner. Financial support. Home ownership.

    Horses for courses. Some people would rather be alone than accept anything less than 'perfect for them'. Others really want a partner and would prefer someone unpleasant or useless than no one.

I can't understand how some of the awful men that are constantly farting in front of their wives, have skid marks in their pants, don't flush the toilet etc, that are complained about on here only started these appalling behaviours after they got married?

Why would you marry someone with such poor hygiene and spend years with them before finally getting fed up? 🤷🏼‍♀️

A lot of the women I know are very concerned about not disadvantaging others or affecting them negatively so will self regulate their behaviour. Whereas many of the men I know are just interested in making their life as pleasant or easy as possible, even if that disadvantages others - and not only would not feel bad, but would feel good about themselves for getting one over. Even when they supposedly like or care for the other person.

@Atethehalloweenchocs point about men never wanting their wives to change is very valid here, they marry a woman whose focussed on them, whose fun and that's the woman they chose to marry and the one they want to stick around. If a man's not that keen to be a parent then he's probably going to be unprepared for how much his wife changes once the DC arrive especially if he's come from a family where Dad didn't do much parenting, suddenly he's slipped down the rankings to below the DC, his sex life has diminished and he's resentful, this isn't what he signed up for so he doesn't help with the DC. By now he's wife is resentful because he's not the DF she hoped he'd be and the whole relationship blows up.

The poster I quoted specifically said "women".

I was just pointing out that it would be correct to say some women (just as it is often correct to say some men).

As @GreyCarpet has said, her mother actively chose to take a subservient approach despite not being raised with that mindset.

On MN there appear to be a disproportionate amount of women who don't make the same decisions as @GreyCarpet clearly has, and by staying in these awful relationships they (as women) are consciously passing on the wrong message to their children, female and male, so it's no wonder that nothing ever changes.

To be fair. If my OH decided he was going to do all the cleaning i wouldn't stop him so if a woman continues to do all cleaning cooking and childcare why would he bother stopping her.

Every single thing these women do, they choose to do and that's OK hut why whinge. If you don't want to cook dinner, don't cook dinner. If you don't want to clean the bathroom don't clean the bathroom.

You're being incredibly naive OP

They change. Its recognised that abuse often doesn't start until children come along.

Advice regularly on here to have the child if you want the child infuriates me. NO. Apply some critical thinking before you have the child FFS. If you do then you are much less likely to be in the - together for 3 years with a two year old and he’s a shit or the father that is dodging his responsibilities. The vast majority of women have agency in their lives nd should use it.

Hear hear! This site is awful for promoting both victimisation and phony empowerment. Be realistic, be insightful, and don't be a victim. It is really, really not that hard.

As so many people have pointed out, they often do not change which is precisely the problem. The lazy, financially incompetent, sexually incontinent loser who won’t clean the bathroom and thinks ever boss is out to get him won’t want to change nappies or hold down stable employment to support a family.

Far too many women take on a project and realise they can’t make a decent man out of a useless man child. Doesn’t stop loads trying but it’s a fools errand. Adding innocent children to the mix perpetuates the cycle of poor male and female role models. If mum’s a skivvy her sons will treat women that way and her daughters will expect no better.

I find it excessively frustrating, tbh.
I also find it frustrating when people come on these threads and go 'men change, abuse ramps up during pregnancy' which are VERY valid points, but it's said as if that's the ONLY thing that happens, that no woman has ever knowingly been with a shit man then had kids with him, like no woman has ever had kids with a shit man, zero responsibility or agency at all, that every case is a man whose duped a woman until they were locked in, and that's just not true, and it's extremely damaging to suggest that it is! We absolutely should be raising awareness that men can change, but it's so deeply unhelpful towards the overall issue to shut conversation down with 'men change, so how dare you imply it's the woman's fault'
Until we can, as women, acknowledge that the two things exist in this discussion - men can present as good and then change, and women do also knowingly have kids with awful men, then we are not able to inspect WHY both these things happen, which is entrenched societal conditioning of both genders, as described very eloquently on these threads - unless we admit and acknowledge it, then we're never going to tackle this problem.

Until we can, as women, acknowledge that the two things exist in this discussion - men can present as good and then change, and women do also knowingly have kids with awful men, then we are not able to inspect WHY both these things happen, which is entrenched societal conditioning of both genders, as described very eloquently on these threads - unless we admit and acknowledge it, then we're never going to tackle this problem.
Agree with this. Both things can be true.

I find it troubling on here how often some posters seem to quickly from relationship to relationship, each one with the expectations that the new fella will take on the dad role and how often some posters will argue that anyone advising caution before introducing children/blending families is shaming women for wanting a relationship, rather than suggesting that parents put their children before their sex life.
It also troubles me how often when a couple can't agree on TTC how often some posters tell people to just come off your contraception, tell him you're not preventing and it's up to him to decide to use a condom or not. He's 100% responsible if he chooses to have unprotected sex when he doesn't want a child, but is that really a sign that he's a brilliant catch who will be a hands on father?
Same for the number of posts that can be paraphrased as "DH/DP is a great dad, but here is a long list of behaviour that is being a crap dad and rubbish spouse. I want to have another baby and a sibling for DC, AIBU to think we should have another?"

Like?! When Destiny’s Child were singing Cater 2 You, I’d love to know who those men were. Because it can’t be these ones!

👏

This.

This is so true.

I can think of so many threads I've read recently (won't give details as it's not fair on those posters) where it's OBVIOUS it's not as simple or straightforward as man, bad/evil/abuser/manipulative/controlling; woman, good/innocent/blameless/powerless and yet so many posters jump straight to that.

The lexical gymnastics at play sometimes to absolve women of any and all responsibility is incredible.

Until someone takes responsibility for their own decision making (whatever background trauma or whatever led them to make that decision), they can't accept that they have agency. Until they accept they have agency they will (continue to) be powerless to change their situation.

It's very frustrating at times.

Disclaimer: this obvipusly doesn't apply to actual abuse but not leaving the house for 5 and a half years because you weren't allowed to leave the baby with him? Come on!

This is such an interesting thread. And points I agree with on both sides.

To be clear, I mostly disagree with the OP.
Apart from two points.

One is kind of what @kitsuneghost said....

To be fair. If my OH decided he was going to do all the cleaning i wouldn't stop him so if a woman continues to do all cleaning cooking and childcare why would he bother stopping her.
Every single thing these women do, they choose to do and that's OK hut why whinge. If you don't want to cook dinner, don't cook dinner. If you don't want to clean the bathroom don't clean the bathroom.

IMHO, Women often have a higher standard of cleanliness, which they expect their partner to live up to. And get angry and resentful if things are done, but not to their standards. Same applies to childcare, actually.

Second point, which makes me seem like I agree with @gothicomedy (which I really mostly don't) is if your DH/DP turns out to be a shit dad, why have another one, two, more with them? You KNOW what you're getting into at that point.

As per PP, one thing I have found incredibly eye-opening about MN is how utterly lax people are about contraception, and how willing they are to go ahead with pregnancies to men they barely know, let alone care about / trust / deem to be good men / potential fathers.

MN is a window into another world for me.

I do not understand the mindset of anyone wanting to saddle themselves to domesticity with the wrong person, to motherhood with the wrong person, to a relationship that is that much harder to extricate from, once children come along.

I think it's just financial necessity. Not earning enough money to support yourself. Especially women whose children have just turned 18 and now they no longer get all the child related money they used to.

As far as dv and abusive behaviour goes research and all the domestic abuse charities confirm that pregnancy is often the most likely trigger. It smacks of victim blaming when people suggest women knew what they were getting in to.

Do other women really live their lives this way? Always worrying what other people will think and making decisions based on silly comments?

Seriously?

Living with a young man when you're also young and child free in a smallish easy to clean flat, where no one cooks very often because you can afford takeaway and eating out; where regular drunken nights out with your respective friends are the norm for you both, is a very different thing to living in a family home with a couple of children. Often men fail to change their ways to adapt to their new circumstance. Unfortunately they don't announce in advance to their partner this will be the case, and so she erroneously believes they will mature as herself does.

1. People put on their best behaviour at the start of any relationship. "Like me, like me". It's human nature. Women do it too. Have you never started a relationship in a sexy black basque and suspenders and a beautiful little lacy nighty and ended it in big cotton pants and comfy PJs?

Tbh no. Always felt comfortable being myself from the start. DH has not changed. We don’t have children but I don’t think that would have changed him either. We have always been a team. Been married 33 years.

As has been said many times, no one is talking about those situations.

There are threads on here every day by women who say the red flags were there from the start; he was still in a relationship when they started seeing each other; he cheated on her 3 months in and she forgave him; he's an alcoholic who's been 'dry' for a month; he was crap with their first child and got no better with the second and third akd many, many variations on these and other themes.

No tall men change. Some men are exactly as they always were and women chose them anyway 🤷🏻‍♀️

Agree with those saying that many men change after kids, even if they were fine before. The work load seems to become unequal in so many cases when it comes to childcare and rarely seems to change when women go back to work.

Don't blame the women. Blame the men who can't be bothered to look after their own kids.