To wonder what on earth some MNetters ever saw in these men?

[gothicomedy]

I'm not talking about abusive and controlling bullies, who are cunning and well able to hide their true personalities before gaslighting women and separating them from friends and families.
But there are so many threads on here about spoilt, childish, selfish, lazy, prima donna partners and husbands sulking over this, that and everything, refusing to help with the children etc etc Surely they would always have been like this and didn't just change personality as soon as they got married or children entered the picture? Why on earth would anyone want to share their lives and take on huge joint responsibilities with these men? Some of the threads on here make for really depressing reads.

It's not about blaming women for men's behaviour. It's about wishing that women would stop enabling it.

Women don't need a rubbish man. I just don't understand how anyone can sacrifice their self-respect and autonomy for the dubious honour of having a man in their life. Hold out, hold out, hold out for God's sake! And if someone good enough doesn't come along, then at least you've avoided the hurt and humiliation of being exploited.

Some responses on here are in the same vein as those on the romance scammer thread; a determination not to judge anyone as being stupid, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It's the old line - you can't control the behaviour of men but you can control your own behaviour, so do that! If they didn't get what they wanted so easily they'd have to think again.

It reminds me of Karen Matthews (of Shannon notoriety). She had a boyfriend, yes - a fine catch. A gormless lad just over half her age who sat playing computer games from morning until night. But hey - she definitely had a boyfriend, so that was OK.

You appear to be incorrectly assuming if there is a male victim of dv then the perpetrator is female. The majority of perpetrators of dv against men are in fact other men.

And of course women are overwhelmingly the victims of repeat and more serious incidents, including fatalities weekly. As I said it's a gendered crime.

No I think there is a level of blaming women here. It's the same vein as asking abused women why they don't just leave as if it's that easy. By doing that you're placing some blame on the women's shoulders for tolerating or choosing the man's behaviour. Some women are in situations where they feel there is no choice, where they have prior trauma that makes it difficult to identify a healthy relationship, where they financially can't afford to go it alone or maybe they've grown up in a home and social circle where mistreatment of women is so common place that it feels inescapable etc. Noone sets out to be in a relationship where they're undervalued and treated badly, many men change over the course of the relationship and not for the better.

There isn't any blaming women here for men's bad behaviour.

But, yes, women need to take responsibility for the choices they make.

The vast majority of posters have already said it doesn't apply to relationships that change when the man becomes abusive or even relationships that are abusive per se.

I was talking to a friend yesterday who was in a violently abusive relationship. It's patently obvious why she didn't leave.

But there are women who post on here who pride themselves in having forgiven an early affair/act of infidelity etc. Or who are posting because they've discovered their husband cheating only to reveal they forgave a ONS or inappropriate messaging early on. Or who ask why he doesn't appreciate her for 'bending over backwards' to make his life easier.

Often, these women will ask "Why me?", "What is wrong with me?", "Why wasn't I enough?"

It's obviously not anything to do with her that he cheated or is lazy but accepting responsibility for choosing a man who behaved like that, and asking yourself why you did, and making changes based upon that is the first step in not accepting it again in the future.

There's a lot of truth in the societal expectations of women that have been explained on this thread.

So we, collectively and as women, have a choice to either say, "Nope, it's all just men and women are helpless and at the mercy of men," or we ask, "So what needs to change?"

Men aren't going to change for us because they're quite happy with the status quo. So we need to change it for ourselves. We can educate ourselves, we can change the narrative around bringing up our daughters, we can choose to not perpetuate the myth that women have to be nice and kind at all times, we stop excusing/tolerating men's bad behaviour and asking ourselves what we did to cause it, we refuse to take on the lion's share in the early days understanding that that is the blueprint for the future relationship.

It might not change those men's behaviours but at least women won't be impacted by it.

The bottom line for me is that, if women don't take responsibility for their choices, and try to understand them, and why they made those choices, they will make them again.

Not being permitted to discuss it or question it won't protect women. Nor will it stop it from happening.

Empowering women to realise that they do have a choice; that it's OK to he single; that they don't have to be 'grateful' or that it's not normal and the same for everyone and that, actually, no, not all men are like that wil do more for women than "stop blaming women for men's behaviour" is ever going to.

Empowering women to realise that they do have a choice; that it's OK to he single; that they don't have to be 'grateful' or that it's not normal and the same for everyone and that, actually, no, not all men are like that wil do more for women than "stop blaming women for men's behaviour" is ever going to.
Agree with this.
Every time someone on here posts to tell a woman with a weak shark cage that:

• she isn't responsible for all domestic tasks
• that a decent man wouldn't expect her to put her long term financial security on the line
• that there are men out there who don't drink to excess and do drugs
• that a decent man would be seeing his children and providing for them
• that when a man has a string of "crazy" ex girlfriends, the common denominator is him
• that men can, and do, housework competently
• that weaponised incompetence is a thing
• that it isn't her job to teach him to clean the bathroom or do chores
• that her worth is more than having a man in her life

And so on and and so on, they're helping that woman and other women on Mumsnet realise they are worth more than some manchild who moves girlfriend to girlfriend cocklodging and having children he doesn't provide for.

And to realise that it’s ok not to have children, and not having them can be preferable to having them with a shit man.

I've just linked to this thread on another where a woman is asking if she's being 'unfair' by not meeting a man who is persistently ignoring her boundaries, goes off radar for a week and and she isn't actually into anyway.

This is the type of thinking that is rife. Women worrying that they are being 'unfair' to men who are consistently ignoring their boundaries or behaving like dicks.

I hope she reads this thread.

There is also a thread about panic rehoming of XL bully dogs. One poster questioned how those poster will feel once the 'warm glow of altrusim' has worn off.

What a brilliant expression. I think this sums a lot of it up too, tbh.

I wonder how many of the women who ignore the red flags at the start just feel a bit sorry for the man and think dating them/helping them to understand what women want is an act of kindness in and of itself?

@GreyCarpet, I followed your link and was relieved to see replies encouraging her to value herself more!

Agree about the 'warm glow of altruism'. I used to say - without realising what I was saying, iyswim - I thought I must be some sort of relationship training ground. Men would be shoddy partners to me, I'd patiently explain, train & nurture, then they went off to be better partners to other women. I mean, I don't know whether they really were better! It looked that way.

I absolutely was brought up to think of myself as having a duty to help, teach & support. I have done so in all areas of my life, and am proud of many contributions I've made. But no-one told me this wasn't my only purpose, other choices are valid, and I should in fact prioritise myself. They definitely didn't tell me not to squander my talents on men who wouldn't reciprocate!

Even without overt indoctrination, it's culturally insidious and starts from a very young age. It's particularly intensive around the topic of a girl's duty to lovingly transform unpromising/idiotic/demanding men. I'm very glad Disney's half-heartedly addressing this, but it needs wholesale reform.

In a lot of cases, it's when people get together when they're both still a bit young and unformed and get stuck in unhealthy patterns. early 20s is pretty much 'settling down' time for lots of people still in the lacuna after university ends, and who isn't a total idiot at 22? So two silly idiots grab onto each other to avoid being left behind, and grow up together, well or badly. If one or usually both of them have a bunch of issues, these will interact in strange ways and often result in some very unhealthy codependent weirdness.

Much better to spend one's 20s single and grow up into full adults first I imagine, and choose a similarly grown up life partner in your 30s or 40s. But then there's cost of living, fertility knocking at the gate... and just the good old fashioned loneliness that modern living engenders.... all pushing people who are basically just dumb kids to couple up and procreate.

Also, kids. Kids are the great damascene moment in many a relationship, which was trucking along just fine as long as the woman partner made every decision with her male counterparts needs and comfort first in mind, and the man just pleased himself. Along comes a baby, woman's focus utterly shifts, with the wellbeing of the child of primary importance and is astonished to discover that not only is the child's father not on the same page as her about this, he is actually grumpy and resentful because HIS needs are no longer front and centre. It's a pretty astounding moment and causes one to realise the extent to which the relationship going well has depended on the woman's emotional labour.