To wonder what on earth some MNetters ever saw in these men?

[gothicomedy]

I'm not talking about abusive and controlling bullies, who are cunning and well able to hide their true personalities before gaslighting women and separating them from friends and families.
But there are so many threads on here about spoilt, childish, selfish, lazy, prima donna partners and husbands sulking over this, that and everything, refusing to help with the children etc etc Surely they would always have been like this and didn't just change personality as soon as they got married or children entered the picture? Why on earth would anyone want to share their lives and take on huge joint responsibilities with these men? Some of the threads on here make for really depressing reads.

Oh for gods sake people aren't wholly good or wholly bad and people's behaviour changes over time and in different circumstances. Op, do you think the subtle shaming of women in bad relationships makes it easier for them to leave or isolates them further?

They don't start out that way. And then when they start behaving like that its slow and you don't realise, or you can't believe it could be deliberate or you blame yourself and you try to be better so they stop.

Some them do though.

Cheating when they first got together; blatant disregard and disrespect from the first date. How many "Should i give him another chance?" threads are there when the answer is obviously a big, fat NO!? Should I listen to my gut instinct? Yes! Should I stick with it even though he makes me feel shit about myself and all my friends and family tell me he's no good? Er...

I read a thread this morning and the poster was detailing a catalogue of misdemeanours from the start and had gone on to have childen with him. That's not someone who was hiding their true colours. That's someone who was displaying their red flags for all to see!

Some women believe they can change him; some women think he'll appreciate her forgiveness and love her for it; some think it's a temporary aberration from an otherwise decent man; some think he will automatically change when a baby is born; some just lack the foresight to realise it isn't going to get any better or think beyond "but what if he is the one man who will love me?"

Some women prioritise being with a man over everything else.

My mother chose a man nearly 20 years ago (she is still with him) who my brother and I had concerns about. I spoke to her once about it and she cried saying I didn't know the sacrifices she'd had to make just to have a boyfriend. Long story short, 12 years ago, we learnt exactly what those sacrifices were and cut contact with her. Ultimately, she was prepared to sacrifice her entire family just to not be single.

Some women are fools and their own worst enemies. And many of them can see it from the start they just choose to ignore it.

@Saymyname28

They don't start out that way.

Lots do though. My sister's ex husband showed all the signs of being a waste of space right from the start but she wouldn't listen to reason and was blind to it all. Same with a work colleague at my first workplace - her then boyfriend started a pub fight with some of our colleagues at a works "do" - entirely his fault but she just shrugged it off and ended up being hospitalised by him a few months later!

I've no doubt some are good at hiding their violent/abusive traits, but in a lot of cases, all the warning flags are then in plain sight but the woman just refuses to see what's blatantly staring at them!

I'm older (so different expectations anyway), but men were generally capable and it was a slow slide towards laziness which wasn't seen until too late. It's not like they woke up one morning refusing to do anything, it starts off as delaying tactics (I'll do it tomorrow, I'm too tired etc), and those excuses start getting more and more often until the woman stops asking, usually when the men start getting angry over being "nagged". This takes years.

And the only conversation regarding children was whether you wanted any. This is part childhood conditioning, part generational thinking, which means you end up with crap men and so the cycle begins again.

Consider yourself very, very lucky if you cannot comprehend this at all.

Or ones that shit all over the house

If he’s already got kids he doesn’t bother with there’s a good chance he’ll be the same with any additional ones. But plenty of posters are willing to believe he’s a blameless victim of an evil ex and would be an amazing dad given the chance.

How condescending are you ?!!

Yep.

The number of posters who get pregnant by someone who doesn't see their children or is an alcoholic or has a string of 'crazy exes' or whatever else.

Plus the number of posters who are back a year later saying that last year, the entirety of MN told them to leave, they didn't, have since had a baby and now feel utterly trapped.

Its not like they weren't aware.

Ir the women who decide to forgive an affair(s), get pregnant shortly after, then discover another affair and now feel trapped.

Or the women who dated a man with a sketchy employment history because all his bosses hated him and now find themselves stuck with a baby, doing all the housework and being the only one working.

Sometimes it's a slow slide into laziness or whatever or an out of character act (ie shitting all over the house). But quite often the men are advertising themselves as 'not boyfriend material' from the start (or at least before marriage and children) and women still choose them 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think this has a lot of truth in it.
Most girls are conditioned from an early age to be kind, attractive, sexual enough for a man, any man, to want them; this is the ultimate goal.

My family definitely has a mindset that any woman who doesn't have a man is a loser. Certainly it was said that I could not keep a man - when the reality was it was me finishing, or not starting, relationships with men who weren't good enough for me. Both men and women in my family saw me as a 'loser' for not accepting poor behaviour.

However once you're in a relationship with a bloke who turns out to be a loser it can be really hard to get out especially when you have children, financial commitments etc. There's probably a bit of a sunk-cost fallacy too.

Reading MN frequently has both raised my standards and made me quite worried to date again in case I get one of the men who does a sudden change

I totally agree with you, OP. Ignore the people who are having a go at you, they are just making excuses for their own poor judgement/lack of backbone.

When DS was born, literally nothing changed for my husband. DS is 5.5 now and two weeks ago was the first time I was 'allowed' to leave him with DH while I went to the supermarket.

Oh dear....I've already started looking forward to a (long-distant) retirement involving minimal DIY and housework! As opposed to the current relentless situation with 2 small children and both of us working.

I was raised by a (wonderful) man who was not remotely a feminist. He believed in a lot of things that would seem very off in this woke world, but I still was raised with a high self esteem and that I could do anything. The first thing I learned in life is that you cannot blame others or 'society' for personal outcomes. Now, this is not entirely just: particularly under this government, social mobility has stagnated so there are real structural barriers to success. However, these are far more class or race based than gender based. As long as women make excuses for men being shit, and say 'that's how they are' the less things will change for those women.

What would have happened if you'd just said, "I'm going out for a bit" and walked out the door?

That's what I use to do. Not because I needed to as my exh was crap with the children but because it wouldn't have occurred to me not to!

It isn't 'shaming' to expect people to have a little gumption and some common sense. Yet again this place provides the fainting couch for 'feminists'.

As long as women make excuses for men being shit, and say 'that's how they are' the less things will change for those women.

This.

I grew up in abuse so my expectations, world view, sense of self and self esteem were not where they should have been, let's say... but I learnt.

It isn't 'shaming' to expect people to have a little gumption and some common sense

Your 'feminists' comment makes no sense but this is very true.

Sorry, I was referencing a concept by a feminist called Christina Hoff Sommers who talks about 'fainting couch feminists'. A lot of mumsnetters are like that, I think. It is the sort of woman who hates men, thinks that everything bad that happens to a woman is the fault of men, but also that the world is so rigged that there is nothing to do but wring ones hands and complain.

Ah, makes sense now!

Yes, unfortunately I do think there is a lot of that on here. Most often seen on threads where a woman can do not wrong/have no culpability and it is always the fault of the man.

Structural patriarchy is an issue and men are better placed than women socoetally, but in your personal life, you make your own choices.

Agree with this. I was late twenties before I realised I'd been accepting the shittest behaviour as par for the course. Seemed normal after growing up in a household with alcoholism and dv.
I look back now at 50 and wish I could erase a whole decade of terrible, damaging relationships from my teens on.
I didn't have the language to describe it back then but I do now.

Some excellent points made about societal conditioning upthread already!
The bar is in HELL for men, but also, the threshold for the reasons you are socially 'allowed' to leave a longer term (1 year+) relationship are so ridiculously high, and are upheld by men and women! Because women will go 'yeah I know he never lifts a finger in the house, but he's a good worker and he loves the kids and is a nice guy, so you can't leave him based on that'
The minute kids are involved, you are meant to 'put them first' too - sorry, but ive been on here for years, and the biggest observation I've made is when people talk about their parents splitting up when they were younger, it's 'it was annoying to move from house to house' or 'dad used to dump us with his new girlfriend and bugger off' - all PAST annoyances. Whereas in the ones who stayed together, they are still dealing with the problems to this day 'my dad's an arsehole to mum, has been all our lives, and now refuses to care for her so I'm running two households' 'I've ended up in an abusive relationship, my parents were also abusive to each other so it's normal for me'

Yes, I completely agree. Those threads drive me absolutely up the wall.

I think a lot of men really aren't bothered about having children and take the view that if their wives have them, ok but it's the wife's hobby, her project, it shouldn't affect me.

In the situations that I know in my life, it's because people have married and had kids etc "because it's the done thing". I know people of both sexes who have done this, so not being anti-feminist. But as other people have said, it's definitely true that it's viewed as being some kind of status symbol/sign of success if you're married, kids, 4x4, big house, holidays etc so they put up with having a shit spouse so that they can attain a feeling of success by having these.

The people I know who have the lazy/moody/arse husbands are always the ones on social media constantly posting pictures of themselves and their spouses with their arms round each other as if to try and convince everyone (and themselves) that they're the perfect couple.