To wonder what on earth some MNetters ever saw in these men?

[gothicomedy]

I'm not talking about abusive and controlling bullies, who are cunning and well able to hide their true personalities before gaslighting women and separating them from friends and families.
But there are so many threads on here about spoilt, childish, selfish, lazy, prima donna partners and husbands sulking over this, that and everything, refusing to help with the children etc etc Surely they would always have been like this and didn't just change personality as soon as they got married or children entered the picture? Why on earth would anyone want to share their lives and take on huge joint responsibilities with these men? Some of the threads on here make for really depressing reads.

My XH and I had a lovely, equal relationship. Both worked, enjoyed our time off together, equal finances, equality in housework, everything. He was polite, pleasant, fun and loving. We had our first child, he doted on DC, helped out while I breastfed, was supportive when I went back to work.

Then we had our second baby. Very high needs, no sleep. I gave up work at that point, as we couldn't really afford childcare for two under twos. And as soon as I stopped bringing money into the house - that was it. I became a second-class citizen with no rights to opinions, to be helped around the house or with the children. That was my 'job'. As was absolutely everything else. He went to work (quite a Big Job) and that was his contribution. He became entitled, lazy, a slob around the house and would willingly watch me work myself to a frazzle with the baby under one arm and a toddler attached to my leg.

They don't all start out being absolute shits. Sometimes they wait until you will find it really really hard to leave.

I remember a few years ago in an interview Dolly said she had thought of ringing Jolene and asking if she still wanted her man, 40 plus years on 🤣🤣

You gotta love Dolly and her sense of humour 😁😁

There are also men around who end up with women with those traits.

Tbh, I think you are are coming across very young and naive about the complexities in long term relationships and very judgemental.
Or to summarise SMUG ( with a whiff of superiority)

Some men's misogynistic views only become apparent in particular circumstances. I knew someone who lived with her DP, they shared chores quite happily, both worked, then they got married. As soon as he had a "wife" he stopped doing anything, clothes thrown on the floor, nothing done in the kitchen etc. They came back from it but it took counselling. Having a baby can turn men into menchildren as the dynamic changes in the house.

And I think you are making excuses for learned helplessness and women being doormats.

YABU.
Women are taught from birth that it’s our job to let men do what they want.
It stands to reason that when it comes to picking a life partner we’re not always as qualified as we’d like to be.
Off the top of my head:

We’re expected to put up with crap behaviour from boys in school. We were even made to sit next to them to help control them.

Most Romcoms feature creepy behaviour from men, which we’re conditioned to believe is sexy or romantic or other such rubbish.

Porn is rife. Too much porn features violence that actively put me women in danger. Women and girls are expected to be cool with it. To accept harmful practices as mainstream.

Many men keep up a pretence of being a decent man until they have children, then whatever it is, resentment, jealousy, controlling urges, I don’t know, is unleashed. Having put in the scant effort required to win a woman over, once babies are on the scene he subconsciously knows it’s very much more difficult for a woman to make free choices about her life, and even if he doesn’t outwardly become a shithead, it’s a fact that most mothers (NOT fathers) are the default parents, who carry the mental load. It’s much easier for men to take a step back and do fuck all, under the guise of “well I work”.

How about we start treating women and girls truly as equals? How about we have the same expectations of behaviour from men as we do women? How about we work to raise the conviction rates of rape?

The way society is a set up seems to mean that women are held responsible for male behaviour. It should be the other way round. Hold men responsible for their own behaviour.

Some are easily charmed or just attracted to arseholes.

“What about the men!”

They obviously saw something. Maybe it was just a subconscious desire to try and right a wrong from a difficult childhood and they recognised something familiar in the man that reminded them of a caregiver or who knows. I hate this thread though, I find it smug , condensing, judgemental for no reason and really unhelpful to women who are wondering this about their own situation right now. I’m not one of them, but I have been.

In my case there were many factors. He was om his 'best behaviour' before we married I guess, now he's much more selfish. Also kids throw a grenade into a marriage and highlight the flaws. Also I've changed... I don't want cosy nights in, I want to live my life and he doesn't, so more conflict. People change... I thought I had the perfect man, now ...?

But often times it’s childhood trauma that is unseen by the victim that leads them to subconsciously seek out a partner who will make them re-experience that childhood traumatic relationship with the hope of making it ‘right’ this time. People can’t even see that they’re doing this so it’s not weak or deliberate in the main.

I know some people who think they are nothing without a man because they are bought up this way by family or it important to get married in their part of society. One of my friends was at a family wedding about 20 years ago and one of her aunt's made a comment - we never see you with anyone. My friend at the time was apox 30 and single. She pretended she did not hear this comment but it was hurtful at the time. Most of her friends and relatives around her age were in relationships or getting married.

My friend said afterwards her aunt's husband knew her aunt was financially comfortable when they met and she was sure this helped him marry her.

I don't think anyone wants to tell a woman to stay away from x when they knew that he could chet, lie, gamble, be a heavy drinker or they have noticed the red flags with him. Some woman just refuse to listen to something like this. Then complain when a few years later they are stuck with him because of kids, lack of money ect.

I know men as well that just keep going for the same type of woman and then wonder why things don't work out.

One of my friends was rejected by a man like this and he went on to get another woman pregnant. This woman had plenty of red flags that he chose to ignore. A few years later he wanted to get into a fwb situation with my friend and she told him they could just be friend's. My friend told me I am not taking him on with all his current baggage and most of his problems are due to not listening to the advice I gave him in the past.

I know parents then put in the work early on so their kids built up good self awareness, confidence and realise what other kids are like. So their kids develop good friendships and keep away from the kids that are bullies, mean ect.
As their kids get older the friends became more important as if you have friends that want to do well in school, go to university they encourage friends to want the same. Then sometimes the friends can see if the new boyfriend/girlfriend is wrong one and tell them I don't like what X said or did.

Boys experience childhood trauma just as equally as girls do, but it’s rare that anyone defends men’s behaviour because it’s the result of trauma or negative patterns they learned in childhood. We quite rightly now believe men should be held accountable for their behaviour and believe they should shoulder the responsibility for choosing to make better choices rather than rely on others making excuses for it. If we’re going to change things then it does women no favours not to do likewise, whilst being sympathetic in doing so as to how difficult it is - for both sexes - to move beyond ingrained learned behaviour.

Unfortunately I think some women are prepared to overlook a lot if they are desperate for children. “ He’s not perfect but he’ll have to do because I want kids”.

I do think it can get worse when you have children. When you don't have kids, it is relatively easy to work full time, do some chores and still have a time consuming hobby like gaming etc. You may even be able to afford to buy in a bit of help, like a cleaner. I also think if the woman is picking up a bit more of the slack in this scenario, they may not even notice, necessarily, or care as much, because it is manageable?

Obviously, with young children that dynamic changes complete, and for anyone sensible, the hobby time has to be cut. But some people (often men) can't cope with that, and push more and more onto the woman. And then the woman pushes back and you get the sulking/guilt tripping type dynamic etc. But at that point there are young children and it's hard to leave etc...

I do also think the bar is still a lot lower for men in many ways e.g. pre kids a man who cooks regularly but never washes up or whatever may be seen as "good"- but later you realise he only cooks when he finds it fun, and isn't going to do a boing mid week tea for the kids, etc etc.

In terms of men who already have children, or who obviously aren't pulling their weight at all, I do think some of it is people who can't cope with being on their own for whatever reason, and feel they have to have a partner, no matter how rubbish!

Yeah, women have agency and are accountable for their own choices, saying they aren't is misogyny in itself and not feminist. Who women choose to have kids with is such an important decision, as it impacts on the child and the next generation.

Men are also accountable for their own actions.

This!

Both women and men 'change' as they age, experiences, health, and general development will mean a person at 25 won't be the same at 45. The problem is when those developing character traits are negative rather than positive, and the balance shifts in a relationship.
Both sexes need to take responsibility for their life decisions. 100+ years of feminism yet still some women prefer to shout 'victim blame' rather than accept agency for their own lives. Men are 💯 responsible for their own behaviour and should always be accountable, but women are too. Unacceptable behaviour shouldn't be tolerated by either sex.

refusing to help Because women expect the men to help when they should expect the men to pull their weight.

I must admit I do often think the same. I say all this from a very privileged position - 2 very loving parents and an amazing partner now. Sometimes I wonder whether it’s to do with how you was raised maybe? Sometimes I think people long so much for a “normal” family if they’ve been deprived of one that they’ll settle for anyone in the hope of getting it.

My dad was an equal partner around the house. He worked shifts and had been in the Army, so he'd learned to do a lot of 'household' stuff for himself, so he just carried on doing them once he was married to my mum. They both worked, although my mum stopped when my brother and I were born until my brother went to school, and after that they split the housework.

I thought all men were like that. I genuinely thought that was how life went, that husband and wife did most jobs equally. Which was why it came as a huge shock when DC2 came along and my husband, essentially, 'downed tools'. I had no way of dealing with it, because I'd never seen it modelled; it had never needed to be.

My XH went on to marry a woman who very firmly put him in his place and made him pull his weight in the way that I should have done the first time he put his plate on the floor or dropped dirty laundry or told me that getting up to the kids every night was 'my job'. I wished I'd known then how to really put my foot down.

Some men change over time, especially once children arrive.

Some men were always selfish man-children but their partner overlooked these qualities or minimised them, only for them to become really obvious when he didn't step up a gear after having children.

Some men are happy doing their fair share but once they get used to a wife on maternity leave they conveniently decide they're not going to go back to doing what they did before, especially if wife goes part time.

Some men were selectively incompetent from the start and the woman didn't mind because she enjoyed making the house nice so she chose to ignore the lazy and selfish behaviour. Fast forward 5-10 years and keeping a house nice with a useless husband and 2 kids is a chore.

Some men have red flags all over them but some women decide that they'll be the one to change him / it will be different with them / they'll not be like his ex.

Some woman have such a low bar for men, for a range of reasons, that simply breathing and not being violent is enough to make him a catch.

Some women would rather be in a relationship with an arse than be single because they feel they need to be in a relationship.

As another pp has mentioned I also do think there can be an element of feeling that she will be the one to change him. There are some women who think that they can change their OH into what they would like him to be rather than what he actually is and when they finally realise that this is not going to happen it is more difficult to leave. There may be children involved or it may be difficult financially.

One thing I have learned is that the old MN cliche "When someone shows you who they are believe them" is so true. I think sometimes when you are in the first flushes of lust it is easy to overlook certain things and believe that you can change them but this very rarely happens.

I don't disagree that this happens. Amd it's shit when it does.

But these aren't the situations the OP is talking about. If someone fundamentally changes (or eventually reverts to type) with no sign of it before and, of course, that's all on him.

But there are many women who have all the information they need about a man long before co-habitation, marriage or babies are on the cards and still continue with it hoping they'll change.

In the relationships you describe - where chores are shared equally, they are respected etc, the women take the next step assuming they won't.

^ This. And the men think we should be grateful too.