To wonder what on earth some MNetters ever saw in these men?

[gothicomedy]

I'm not talking about abusive and controlling bullies, who are cunning and well able to hide their true personalities before gaslighting women and separating them from friends and families.
But there are so many threads on here about spoilt, childish, selfish, lazy, prima donna partners and husbands sulking over this, that and everything, refusing to help with the children etc etc Surely they would always have been like this and didn't just change personality as soon as they got married or children entered the picture? Why on earth would anyone want to share their lives and take on huge joint responsibilities with these men? Some of the threads on here make for really depressing reads.

But it’s not blaming the woman for the man’s actions, it’s blaming her for failing to predict them. Not the same. There are so many posts on here from women complaining about how useless their husbands are at childcare and the poster is pregnant again or has had a baby quite recently. As Einstein said, the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Lol. Thank you for proving my point.

Now we are blaming women for not being able to predict the future rather than a man for his own actions. The internalised misogyny is real.

Haven't RTFT but imagine writing an entire post about how women are fault for the actions of lazy men.

Has anyone popped up to blame the mothers of these men yet?

I should have said “failing to predict them based on the information she already had”. Are you seriously suggesting that women should never be held accountable for any decisions they make, or viewed as having any agency at all, because everything is men’s fault?

Willyoujustbequiet

The best predictor we have of someone's future behaviour is their past actions.

We make predictions all the time. It's not about being able to 'predict the future' with certainty but we make predictions all the time about everything. Otherwise we'd constantly be surprised by everything that happens in life/the world.

There are no guarantees but if you choose to date someone who has cheated, has been consistently out of work, is reckless with money, drinks to excess or whatever, on what basis is someone predicting they won't do it again or will stop?

Not one single person has blamed women for men's actions. HTH.

Men choose to donthese things.

Thebqiestion is why do some women choose to put up with it?

Some men don't reveal this side of themselves until the woman is effectively trapped by marriage or children but others are displaying these behaviours from the start.

Women aren't responsible for these behaviours but they are responsible for accepting them.

No. I'm suggesting women aren't held accountable for men's actions which is exactly what I said.

If a man cheats, which was the example, it is his fault. Its patently ridiculous to state its her fault for not predicting his future actions.

It's blatant misogyny.

Of course we're blaming women for it @Willyoujustbequiet !!! It's literally the point of this thread 😂

The best predictor we have of someone's future behaviour is their past actions.

This is why these men fall into two distinct camps too.

Women have reasonably predicted that a decent man will continue to be decent. They had no idea he was going to change. Why would they?

Have you really never been in love with someone who wasn’t really a great person? You’ve never looked back on a relationship and seen that someone you loved at the time was quite selfish?

If a man cheats, which was the example, it is his fault. Its patently ridiculous to state its her fault for not predicting his future actions.

But if he cheated on her at the start why wouldn't she assume its something he's likely to do again and walk away?

My ex husband cheated after 12 years. My dad cheated after 25 years of marriage. Neither of those were 'predictable' unless you take the view that all men will cheat eventually, which I don't.

But if you'd been dating someone for 3 months and he'd had a couple of one night stands during that time why wouldn't you predict he was likely to do it again?

What's the thinking there?

If you knew someone had cheated on you in the early stages, would you really take the risk? Because I wouldn't!

I've only read bits of this thread but I am always amazed at threads like this where everyone seems to think it's just ONE thing. It's not. It's a whole bunch of issues that work alone and together depending on the circumstances. Ranging from:

The way women have been taught to expect less/do more.
The way men have been taught to expect to be at the top of any hierarchy and to have their needs and desires met first
The fact that many poor behaviours are not as obvious when life is easy and happy.
The way that many many women even when they question the behaviours are told they are wrong, that they need to "help him to learn" etc etc etc (seen on here ALL the time - it's all very well saying that women should spot the behaviours but th amount of minimising and excusing on here and in real life is mind-blowing).
The fact that once children come along, women's choices are reduced anyway because unlike men, they can't just stop looking after them.
Deep seated economic inequalities that mean men still overall earn more than women with more opportunities.
A society that has different expectations for men than it does for women.
Women's needs/preferences not considered as important

The list goes on and on and on and on and on.

@JadziaD

Long thread with good points however I feel you have hit the Nail on the Head with your post.

"The way women have been taught to expect less/do more.

The way men have been taught to expect to be at the top of any hierarchy and to have their needs and desires met first
The fact that many poor behaviours are not as obvious when life is easy and happy.
The way that many many women even when they question the behaviours are told they are wrong, that they need to "help him to learn" etc etc etc (seen on here ALL the time - it's all very well saying that women should spot the behaviours but th amount of minimising and excusing on here and in real life is mind-blowing).
The fact that once children come along, women's choices are reduced anyway because unlike men, they can't just stop looking after them.

Deep seated economic inequalities that mean men still overall earn more than women with more opportunities.
A society that has different expectations for men than it does for women.

Women's needs/preferences not considered as important"

Of course we're blaming women for it @Willyoujustbequiet !!! It's literally the point of this thread
No, it isn't.

Men are responsible for their behaviour.
Women are responsible for their behaviour.

If a man chooses to be a useless man child and awful partner he is 100% responsible for his behaviour.

If a woman meets a man who is lazy, selfish, has children he doesn't see or pay for and a string of excuses about his crazy ex girlfriends, the woman is responsible for stopping and deciding whether he's really a good catch or not before settling down and having kids with him. Having multiple babies with a man who already has shown he's a crap father who walks away from his existing children is silly at best. He's shown his new girlfriend exactly who he is

My stbxh was lovely for 6 years. We got married after 4 years. He was a model husband, and I felt so lucky to have him. He was kind, thoughtful, supportive and pulled his weight domestically. It all changed after 6 years together, about 6 months after the birth of dd. He slowly became selfish, unsupportive, did less and less housework, didn't want to spend time as a family, started messaging other women and became an aggressive drunk. I think he was great before we had a child, but having a young child meant that he wasn't my biggest priority anymore, and he couldn't deal with that. He became resentful and selfish, until I decided I wasn't willing to put up with it anymore.

This with bells on!

Exactly this. But pointing it out is misogynist apparently. Not denying that some men do turn nasty or useless. But if you know already that he’s a useless dad to his existing children why put another bar on the window by having yet another with him?

JadziaD (great name btw)

Except that I was brought up with those same messages and teachings and I rejected them.

There's nothing special about me.

I grew up in abuse, have had therapy for the resulting trauma and still only feel I'm functioning rather than thriving in life.

But I would rather be single any day of the week than with a useless man whose behaviour I feel I have to excuse, tolerate or ignore.

We all grew up with those messages. for some, it's easier to push back and realise it's wrong. Sometimes.bwvause of who we meet along the way, the experiences we have, the books we read, etc. I had some teachers who were very important in my thinking. I also read more than any of my.peers so that probably.exposed me to different things. There may well have been some inbuilt misogyny in my upbringing (definitely) but I also was taught to think and question too, even when those questions weren't in line with the views of my family.

This

I think it's far more misogynistic to suggest women are always and only victims without agency who can't possibly make a positive choice or use their judgement of current or past actions to predict likely future behaviours tbh.

This would suggest that it is only the luck of the draw. And it's not.

Some men are arseholes. We don't have to date them, marry them or have children with them.

Often women hope someone will improve with time. Then find themselves pregnant and find it easier not to be a single mother bringing up a child alone. Sadly.

They don't start out that way.

What many women tell themselves to make them feel better about their choices. Off course they were always like that , you were just happy enough to turn a blind eye or want to 'change' him.

That's a fair point.

Often women hope someone will improve with time.

I agree but it is a choice to hope for that.

They could also__ choose not to hope for that and dump him long before pregnancy and single parenthood looms.

But some people are suggesting it's misogynistic to say women have a choose and could choose otherwise.

I agree that structural inequalities make it harder to leave once the children are there but having children, and tying yourself to someone in that way, is a choice.