To wonder what on earth some MNetters ever saw in these men?

[gothicomedy]

I'm not talking about abusive and controlling bullies, who are cunning and well able to hide their true personalities before gaslighting women and separating them from friends and families.
But there are so many threads on here about spoilt, childish, selfish, lazy, prima donna partners and husbands sulking over this, that and everything, refusing to help with the children etc etc Surely they would always have been like this and didn't just change personality as soon as they got married or children entered the picture? Why on earth would anyone want to share their lives and take on huge joint responsibilities with these men? Some of the threads on here make for really depressing reads.

I wonder about this sometimes. But then I remember the devil doesn't show his horns when he's approaching and wants to get next to you. If he did you'd run a mile. Never underestimate the power and will of people to completely hide their real personality until they feel comfortable enough to let loose.

I also think sadly, society to this day still encourages women to have a man by any means necessary, and to validate themselves via whether they're in a relationship or not. Its hard for some women not to buy into the pressure.

Some do, some don't. A lot of women seem to think that these men will miraculously change and become responsible, helpful , caring fathers, even if they have been shit husbands. I'm sorry but I have limited sympathy with those women. They are living a life of delusion and dragging completely innocent children into the mess.

But again women can't be held responsible for men's actions. Using your example, if a man cheats then that's on him. To then blame a woman for showing forgiveness is simply misogyny.

From the relationships I've observed, including my own, it's started out unequal without feeling unfair.

She likes the house spotless, he doesn't mind a bit of mess but isn't slovenly - who is to say she is right? So if she wants to live in a spotless house they both do the work to keep it acceptable then she does the additional to make it spotless.

Lots of women want to make a show of their homemaking skills - cooking up a fantastic meal or beautifully decorating the livingroom. Again this may not be important to him so why should he do the work?

It works fine this way whilst she accepts that his wants are not unreasonable and if she wants to go the extra mile then it's on her. But often somewhere along the road it changes, either she gets annoyed at all the extra work she's doing whilst he reaps the benefits, or he realises he can do less and less and she'll pick up the slack.

Then you throw dc into the mix, there was no prior agreement as to standards, and it's very hard for mum to not be deciding the standards if she's doing most of the care.

Moral of the story is to make sure you are well matched in your expectations, and to be prepared to LTB if things change and cannot be resolved.

Completely agree with this. Women are judged & blamed for men's behaviour, by other women as well. We need a government that acknowledges the damage misogyny does, and stamp on it. Misogyny is at the root of women's problems.

Of course it's his decision to cheat.

But if I step out into the road without looking and get hit by a bus, well, it wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest I should have looked first would it? It wouldn't mean I deserved to be hit by a bus but it was a fairly predictable outcome that I'd be hit by something. So I always look because it isn't worth the risk.

It's not misogynistic to suggest that, if a woman finds put her new boyfriend cheated on her, that its reasonable to assume he's probably going to do it again at some point.

Not blamed for men's behaviour, no. And no one on here has suggested that women are responsible for men's behaviour.

But they are responsible for their own choices.

Eg If you enter, or continue, a relationship with someone who cheats - expect him to cheat.

Still his choice to do it but you knew what you were getting into and you could have chosen not to.

Can't just blame misogyny for women choosing bad men. Women have agency and make their own choices.

There is a lot of truth in what Saltburn says but women don't have to accept the expectations.

Some of it is beyond our personal/immediate control. We don't have any responsibility for men's behaviour and we don't have a whole lot of control over systemic and societal inequalities. But we absolutely can choose what we will and won't accept in our personal relationships.

It's one of the reasons I stayed single for the best part of 10 years. I'd rather be single than accept behaours and abide by expectations that don't sit right with me.

I agree with this. And I think it taps into something deep (primeval????) with a lot of women (and I include myself in this).

When our DD was born (she's adult now) I automatically went into "No! DH! You don't hold her like this, you hold her like that" mode.
I hated him at the time, but he told me to fuck off, he told me his way was fine.
It wasn't MY way, but he was right.... his way WAS fine.

I think new mothers can get locked in to doing things "their" way. So the DH, who can't do anything right anyway, backs away.
Mum then complains it's all on her and that he's useless.

I'm REALLY not a male apologist.
But I'm interested in this discussion

I think a certain percentage of people are lazy, gross, manipulative, etc. And so a certain percentage of people who marry will get a partner like that.

What I often wonder is the extent that people like that end up with each other. How many of the women complaining on MN are neglecting to tell us their own issues? Or what would we see if men came and complained on MN about their wives?

Anyway, in the end lots of people, in the courting stage, try and show their best side. And then many people are willing to overlook a lot in order to have a partner.

I think there is something to this with kids. There is a tendency for new mums to be over-the-top protective. I suspect there might be a hormonal element. I felt it really strongly with my first baby, but it decreased a lot by the time my youngest was born. Dad's do often tend to accept the mum's prerogative in those cases.

One common thing I've observed is mums who want a lot more things like activities for kids, and dads who don't care so much, so don't really look to be the driver - literally driving, but also looking for the best playgroup, or researching schools, or music lessons, etc. (The exception might be for families where the dads are into playing sports and actively are involved with that for the kids.)

Women are taught from birth that it’s our job to let men do what they want.
It stands to reason that when it comes to picking a life partner we’re not always as qualified as we’d like to be.

I was never taught that, and my DM was no feminist. I don't actually even know anyone who thinks it is their job to let men do what they want.

Don't blame the women. Blame the men who can't be bothered to look after their own kids.
Men are 100% responsible for their own rubbish behaviour.

However, we need to have standards for ourselves and know our worth. So,

• A man who has children he doesn't see and lots of tall stories why he doesn't see them should have women running a mile, not getting into a relationship and having a baby with him.
• A man who has lots of stories about his multiple "crazy" ex partners is probably going to be a rubbish partner. This should be a giant set of red flags to a woman, not jumping into a relationship with him thinking it will be different with you, you're not like his ex girlfriends.
• A man who has a young child and a lot of drama about if/when he sees them, if he's going to pay appropriate maintenance, etc should have women being cautious about pursuing a relationship, not moving him in and having him play daddy to her children within 6 months of meeting.
• A man who "doesn't see mess" and needs telling to take the bins out or asking to put the dishwasher on, doesn't see women and men as domestic equals. He will have done it himself before he found himself a willing housekeeper. This should have women considering if they really want a lifetime of this because he sure isn't changing when children arrive.

The men are totally responsible for their awful behaviour, but as women we don't have to accept it.

A man who "doesn't see mess" and needs telling to take the bins out or asking to put the dishwasher on, doesn't see women and men as domestic equals. He will have done it himself before he found himself a willing housekeeper. This should have women considering if they really want a lifetime of this because he sure isn't changing when children arrive.

I'm not so sure about this one. As a person who doesn't always see mess, I don't think it's particularly reflective of any kind of moral lack. Some people are not so attuned to the environment around them.

It's like executive function tasks. Some people really struggle with that stuff, especially where financial management is concerned.

It's a problem if one partner is a neat freak and the other isn't. And one partner can easily feel like they've been left with the bulk of the work. But I don't see it as insurmountable, necessarily. Not like a man who is a drunk, or serial cheater, or seems to have issues with his various child support arrangements.

This is a really interesting thread and good to see it develop rather than become a slanging match.

I think a big proportion of the problem is that men are generally ambivalent about having children, this then extends to being ambivalent about doing all the caring for them. Unfortunately, a lot of this is going to be driven by biology.

Once we have our children, we love them so much that we do a mental weigh up of circumstances will be best for them and end up staying with unsatisfactory men.

TempestTost
I take your point, but this isn't about being a bit messy and in a relationship with a neat freak. Different people will have different levels of mess, that's a given.

I'm thinking on balance what percentage of men are genuinely incapable of seeing mess and previously lived in squalor and filth when single Vs the percentage of men who were perfectly capable of basic housework when single only to drop it when they move in with a woman?

I highly doubt all these men who are incapable of using a washing machine without being prompted and don't realise that dishes need washing never did laundry or dishes when they lived alone. I also doubt they go to work and leave their lunchbox and coffee mug festering in the communal kitchen for weeks.

On so many threads on here there's the same old male pattern behaviour, same old weaponised incompetence and on every thread there's always a handful of posters willing to excuse it or add to a woman's mental load by suggesting she gets her partner to "help" by writing him a chore list, or asking him specifically to help her with tasks. It's all same shit, different day where domestic responsibilities are viewed as women's work.

Ludicrous comparison.

If you step out into the road that's your own actions. If a man cheats its their actions. That's the whole point. It's misogynistic to blame a woman for a man's actions.

In my experience they don't start off like that, they hide it and sometimes they are genuinely interested in the relationship for the first year or so but once you are committed emotionally financially and possibly with children they feel secure enough to revert back to their default state which is as you describe in your post. You then find yourself stuck with this man child that you love but don't like very much.

Willyoujustbequiet

It's not about blaming women for men's actions. It's about women taking responsibility for their own.

No one has said that it's a woman's fault a man cheats (or behaves badly in any way) but if someone behaves badly and you continue to accept it then there is some responsibility on you for accepting it repeatedly. That's a choice you made.

Obviously, this doesn't apply when abuse is at play or when, as other posters have said, this is a behaviour that only emerges once marriage and babies have happened.

That is firmly and only on the men.

Being crap, lazy, unfaithful, workshy from the outset is also a choice on the man's part.

But women who choose and accept that behaviour from men from the start? Well it's reasonable to ask why.

Women aren't responsible for how men behave but they are responsible for ignoring, overlooking and excusing it from the start because they could have decided they didn't want to date someone like that and they didn't.

Interesting thread!

I agree with PP who say that men are often pretty ambivalent towards having kids. DH & I have no kids (by choice) and a few years back he got to see first hand the "you'll change your mind when you're older"/"when you meet the right man" BS that I get to deal with. He was stunned - and told me when he said we were planning staying childfree to his cricket mates any comments made were all "you lucky bastard"/"how did you swing that?!". Some of those cricket mates were already dad's at the time!!

I do believe there are men who do want to parent and do it well - but I think in a not insignificant number of cases it's happened because the woman wants kids/wants them now.

As a result, all the hard work of parenting and the increased workload of keeping a clean home is seen a bit as the woman's "fault"/her hobby and therefore her problem to resolve.

It doesn't make these men less pathetic in my eyes at least, but I think that's at the core of it in many cases.

Because they choose not to see it, but surely it could work the other way why is your list about how bad men are, are women immune from being the same?

It is a choice what behaviour people accept or not

In my experience they don't start off like that, they hide it and sometimes they are genuinely interested in the relationship for the first year or so but once you are committed emotionally financially and possibly with children they feel secure enough to revert back to their default state which is as you describe in your post. You then find yourself stuck with this man child that you love but don't like very much.

I feel there are two distinct groups of men who behave badly in relationships.

One is, as you describe, someone who has played their part well, shown an interest, been attentive, been (or at least appeared to be) good partner/family man material etc who seems to morph beyond recognition during pregnancy and beyond. I think there are a few reasons for this - which have been articulated by different posts already.

But there is a second camp of men who don't hide who they are. Who are proudly X, Y or Z right from the start. Who consider it their 'right' to flirt, cheat, message other women online. There are women who post on here who discovered their new boyfriend is still active on dating apps and some women choose to forgive and move on from it only to find they have continued it and wonder why.

Or men who don't work and aren't independently wealthy, who've claimed that they've had to leave every job because their boss didn't like them.

Who who have a string of 'crazy' exes who won't let them see their children.

Some.women seem more focused on fixing or helping and 'supporting' these men than thinking, "Is this the sort of man I want to be with?"

I read so many threads on here where women post about their 'new' partners - a man they've been on 3 or 4 dates there are things they're not happy with and, rather than walking away, are asking how they can understand, support, deal with various faults. Why?

Because they choose not to see it, but surely it could work the other way why is your list about how bad men are, are women immune from being the same

The thread topic was about poor male behaviour in relationships so people are discussing this.

What is it about threads discussing male pattern behaviour that means there's always 'but what about women, women can be bad too'

🙄

The thread is about men who behave badly and why women tolerate it.

If you want to start a thread about women who behave badly in relationships, do so.