AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

Certain cancers are natural biological processes too. Should we not treat those then?

I agree. I'd go for it as early as possible, assuming that I wasn't in total denial about the pregnancy and pretending that it wasn't happening. But @Dacadactyl thinks that abortion shouldn't be legal and women deserve better, a.k.a. the Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton argument. I'm asking how anything could be better than abortion for me or women like me, because there's always someone for whom birth is abhorrent, making abortion is the least of two evils.

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia I am truly sorry to hear of your experiences, I cannot begin to imagine the trauma.

The logical conclusion of saying a woman has a right to choose abortion, includes up to birth; not an arbitrary cut off point like 24 weeks, or whatever.

The logical conclusion of saying a pregnant woman is carrying a human being (as I believe) is that it has a right to life, from conception.

I do not pretend for one moment that it would be easy for a woman who has been raped and is now pregnant to carry a child to term. It is a difficult question and I do not pretend to have an answer. But I do not believe the answer is abortion.

@StrawberryWasp sending you 🍷and 🍫because this lot are exhausting. I agree with every point you've made throughout.

Yeh that's still just a pact not to do the thing for your own good. Rather than because it's wrong. It's transactional and relative moral reasoning. So slavery isn't actually wrong, it's just better for us all if we decide not to do it.

I actually think it's deeply morally wrong. Like killing healthy viable babies.

Stopping slavery required people who were at no risk of being slaves themselves and who had things to lose from letting it go, admitting it was wrong because of a belief that every person has a natural right to life & freedom.

This is a belief, and can't be reached through logic.

Even in cases where the woman's life or health is at risk? In cases of rape, incest or child pregnancy?

But I do not think she knew this is what would happen to the fetus. I imagine she thought it would be just like having an abortion at ten weeks. Can people not see the desperate situation this poor woman was in

She didn’t just find out she was pregnant late in the pregnancy so she could have had an abortion much earlier. If you’re lying to get pills only allowed for 10 weeks or fewer then you must surely question why they’re only allowed for 10 weeks? After all you can get an abortion later than 10 weeks so there has to be a reason.

Not even then.

Thanks Mary and cheers back to you 🍻

I'm stepping back now, I couldn't let the evil madness stand unchallenged, but time to get back to where the normal people are.

Well I'm glad you don't make the laws because I'd be dead and 3 children , one of them who was 6 months old would be growing up without a mother

Puberty and babies are like Cancer...🤣🤣🤣

I really am out.

And we don't know why she didn't, it's all speculation and some posters seem determined to think she did what she did from laziness, or deliberate cruelty, which I think extremely unlikely. Did she think the father would be there and then he wasn't? Did she think she'd cope but then lockdown started and she was stuck at home with her kids and realised she couldn't cope with another? Did she just bury her head in the sand? We don't know, but I don't know why some posters assume she is evil when it's much more likely she was stupid.

The logical conclusion of saying a pregnant woman is carrying a human being (as I believe) is that it has a right to life, from conception.

Thomson's violinist addresses this. The premise is that you find yourself in a hospital hooked up to a virtuoso violinist who needs to use your body for life support whilst one of his organs recovers. Thomson asks whether you should be legally forced to stay there or not, before arguing that you shouldn't. The analogy isn't perfect, as others have said there's no situation in life that's exactly like pregnancy, but importantly the argument starts with the assumption that two humans are involved from the outset. That's why I've said "unborn baby" when arguing on this thread, because my belief in the primacy of the woman's rights isn't based on dehumanising the baby.

Some people want child rape victims to die in childbirth but pro-choicers are the mad ones?

Fuck this.

I'm getting a whiff of fundamental Christianity on this thread now.

Starved over days? Where are you getting that from? You seem determined to believe suffering was inflicted when we don't have any information about that. We don't even know if she was conscious or breathed at all.

That's right, accuse anybody who disagrees with terminating at 32-34 weeks in a way that is barbaric and causes undue suffering to the baby.. a Christian.

I'm a staunch atheist and support abortion within the confines of the law as they are set.

Unsure how I feel about the jailing. 32 to 34 weeks is a baby. This should not be allowed to happen. I suppose the way to prevent it would be to never issue the pills without a scan, due to the possibility of error or intentional deception. Of course early access to scans and abortion would need to be guaranteed.

every person has a natural right to life & freedom.

That is what "you are like me" logically leads to. Every person is like me, so if I deserve life and freedom then so does every other person. I'm not seeing a problem here.

You talk about "killing healthy viable babies". When does person A's right to life get to infringe upon person B's right to freedom in respect to B's own body? I say "never". This would be a clear example of moral absolutism.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

There is ZERO justification for murdering a healthy, viable baby that late in pregnancy, and nothing will change my mind on this.

Feminism on steroids!!

You need to see a doctor - your nasal passages are faulty.

I've adopted children from the care system (not babies) and I'm pro choice. Do you think those two things are incompatible? I asked another poster upthread, but never got an answer.

And yes, we should help adoptees deal with their separation from their birth families, but that's not an argument against abortion, what a strange point of view

Well she was stillborn so wasn't conscious or breathing but they do feel pain at that gestation .

Well as this thread draws to a close the extremists can rest assured that she's getting exactly what she needs.. prison 🙂

Goodnight.