AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

What's your alternative to "as late as necessary"? What do you propose as an alternative that doesn't involve telling a pregnant woman "no, we won't let you withdraw life support have an abortion now, too late"? What's your alternative that doesn't involve a doctor saying to a woman with preeclampsia and broken waters who is having her blood pressure taken every two hours and is a de facto prisoner in hospital in another country because she naively thought she could visit family at 26 weeks, "no, we can't let you fly home, and no, we can't carry out an abortion so that you can fly home because you are too late in the pregnancy"?

@rowanoak

Unborn babies, foetuses call them whatever you want can feel pain when they are aborted at 32-34 weeks. In some cases, they are alive when they are taken out of their mother's body and are just put to one side to die. If you know that you want to have an abortion before the foetus is able to feel pain, you should get an abortion then, not knowingly wait until you know there will be pain because that is just cruel.

Anyone who thinks adoption is so great should read the book The Primal Wound or go to the Facebook group Adoption: Facing Realities and actually LISTEN to the feelings and experiences of adults who were adopted as babies or children (and/or who were in foster care... a situation that many of these "adoption is great" people love to leave out in their quest to strip women of our rights) and you'll see that it's not often nearly as great as it's made out to be.

I know there will be someone coming along telling me how their adopted children are so happy (oh gee, I wonder why you would want to think that?), or even that you yourself were adopted and are happy (great... I'm sincerely happy for you but you are not the only adoption story out there), but if you would stop thinking only about yourself for a minute and actually LISTEN to the stories of people who were adopted and aren't happy about it, you will see that it's not nearly as rosy of a picture as these anti-choicers like to paint it.)

But anti-choicers/baby-snatchers who say this kind of thing are so entitled and close-minded that they will never actually listen to these stories or will dismiss or excuse them, even blaming the victims/adoptees, rather than ever face the fact that they could be wrong, because they are NOT actually interested in hearing what might be best for women and children but are instead bent on pushing their own agenda and narrative and what they selfishly think would be best for themselves at any cost, all while claiming to be unselfish and to care about the poor widdle babies, blah blah blah. Yeah right, give me a break, those of us who had to be raised by people like you see right through you and will continue to call you out.

@Mary0nTheHandlebars thank you. It is infuriating.

No matter what anyone says, regardless of the sensible arguments, there will always be people out there that refuse to believe a woman can commit a crime without some huge glaring backstory, driven by abuse. Women can never just be arseholes. They can never just make the wrong choice and do something unspeakable.

I dare say panic was a driving factor here, but she still did something fucking awful. She's been found to be mentally stable, and the cynic in me suggest that if there was any sexual abuse involved, it would have been used in her defence.

She's a woman, a mother, that's fucked up. People don't like that, so every argument is being rolled out, including 'it's not even a baby' to excuse her inexcusable actions.

My god!! The fundies really are out in force!

You really believe women who have had abortions are all suffering with some kind of guilt or remorse?! On what planet would having an abortion be worse than having to bring up an unwanted child in poverty, abuse, instability etc. Or abandoning a child into the care system. In the vast majority of cases, abortion will be the best outcome for both mother and the potential child.

"A central theme is the assertion that all adoptees, even those adopted at birth, will retain memories of the separation from their birth mothers, and that regardless of the way the adoption is presented and handled by adoptive parents, these memories will have profound effects on the emotional and psychological well-being of the child and adult adoptee." Perhaps we should help these people dealing with emotional pain of separating. Instead of "damn they'll experience mental health issues let's kill them".

On another note. If the social care system is fucked, let's change it and help those in the system

Some people think that the Christian Right wants to ban abortion and force women to carry and give birth to unwanted babies because they want to make poor people and minorities and people who have different philosophies in life have babies that these infertile privileged white people can steal in order to satisfy their own selfish needs and their Christian mission to add more people to God's Army. (A bonus in their eyes is that those who don't end up getting snatched by them can fill their prison industrial complexes and military industrial complexes, being their slaves and even getting themselves killed so that this type can keep their privilege in life.)

Judging from the fact that I was raised in the Christian Right and know that entitled, selfish attitude very well, and also judging by some of the comments in this thread that straight up say crap like "infertile parents would love to raise that baby!" and "this is a crime and she needs to be locked up and the key thrown away!", I think those people are probably right.

Don't claim to be "pro-life" and also support forced birth and the prison system unless you want me to call you out for your obvious contradictions and the fact that you're really just a modern day proponent of slavery.

I find this whole case heartbreaking and conflicting.

I am 100% pro choice. Had a termination (v early) myself as a young woman and have never regretted it.

However, my DC was born at about the gestation of this pregnancy, came out kicking and screaming and full of life. Small, but not that small. Very much a live healthy baby needing very little medical support.

Clearly this woman had a lot of issues and needed help and support, but then i can't switch off the revolted feelings i have at what she chose to do. I don't think prison is necessarily the right move but i find the whole thing awful to read about - i can't imagine thinking that was the best/only thing to do about it.

I've had an abortion. I've never regretted it for a second.

I was a teenager in an abusive relationship with a violent man. I've never wanted children. I did not want the baby. I wanted to go to university.

Many women do not want children.

At university someone on my course attempted suicide because she was pregnant and did not want to be, but was terrified of her parents finding out.

Having an abortion was one of the very few sensible decisions I made as a young person.

I think the issue is is that what she did wasn't an abortion. The drugs she intentionally took were not made for a 34-week fetus. When you put a dog to sleep, you don't slowly poison it then wait for it to die. You end its life instantly, with dignity and respect. What this woman chose to do was to put her unborn baby through unnecessary suffering to end its life. Yes, every woman has the right to end unborn life, but what we don't have is the right to make that life suffer first.

The argument for infanticide is dangerous territory that I hope none of you anti-choicers ever have to face. If you lose a pregnancy and it's considered a baby instead of a fetus then you will face investigation into what you did while pregnant and whether there was any way you could have caused the pregnancy loss or could have prevented it etc.

This is another instance of what I wrote upthread about women being jailed for using drugs in pregnancy instead of helped. When women are treated like walking incubators and the unborn baby's well-being put ahead of the woman's well-being, genuine miscarriages get treated as homicide investigations and Google will confirm that women do end up in jail.

I am really sorry for your loss. Thank you for posting your experience here.

@rowanoak I wonder who else you think would be better off dead? Anyway, the UK is agreed that sometimes it's better a woman doesn't have a baby, and we have adequate provision for that. In this case the person did not use the provision but undertook an illegal DIY job that would have been utterly horrifying to witness.

How very naive.

You really need to do a bit of reading about how the abortion pill actually works. You could even read this thread; your totally inaccurate assumption has already been cleared up.

Hearing "yes every woman has the right to end unborn life" upsets me.

No, not all. But it is an act that goes against a woman's fundamental instinct (to protect her child). I don't believe there is no mental impact from committing the act.

Women are being let down by society when "they feel like they have no other option but to abort". I feel that it is the most anti-woman act on earth and have no idea how feminists get behind it.

Instead of addressing societal issues, it's easier for the government to say "abortion is legal" so that they don't have to address inequalities. This let's women down.

I had an abortion a decade or so ago, I have never wanted children and have always used contraception, sometimes it fails as it evidently did in this case. I literally have not had one second of regret, none at all, not even for a nano second. It was the right decision for me and I don't feel bad about it, the mental health toll of being forced to continue on with pregnancy against my will and either becoming a parent against my choice or giving it up for adoption would have been miles worse.

It wasn't comparable to this heartbreaking situation, I was only 8 weeks which was confirmed by a scan- it was twins which made me even more sure of my decision. I am proud I made the right one for me, I will never feel ashamed about it. That's not to say some people don't regret it, but please don't think we all do- we don't.

Some women just don't want children, they also don't wish to martyr themselves by having the baby to give up for adoption or whatever else. I agree it's sad when women are forced into a decision effectively by living in poverty or whatever, but access to legal and safe abortions is not anti woman at all.

Right, the Susan B. Anthony argument.

We can and should improve social conditions so that no woman ever says "I must abort because I can't afford this baby". But there's always going to be a woman somewhere who is pregnant and simply doesn't want to be.

Believe it.

The instinct for self-preservation is far stronger than the instinct to protect what is, effectively, a tumour, until we decide we are carrying a person.

She was having sex with two men, other than her partner.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/mum-who-lied-how-pregnant-8514699.amp

No matter what anyone says, regardless of the sensible arguments, there will always be people out there that refuse to believe a woman can commit a crime without some huge glaring backstory, driven by abuse. Women can never just be arseholes. They can never just make the wrong choice and do something unspeakable
Exactly that! It's getting painful to read threads after reads than men are cruel but women can do no wrong. A woman must always a good reason to engage in any despicable action whilst men do so because they are violent and nasty by nature.

What this women did is an act of violence resulting in painful death. Whatever her reasons and that's a crime.

100% pro choice, but aborting a baby at 32-34 gestation should be considered murder unless medically indicated. There is a 24 week limit for a reason.

@Dutch1e I imagine it must easier to think of yourself as having a tumour, rather than being pregnant, but I would say that that is because you need to be able to steel yourself. I would say that thinking like that has a lot to do with self preservation too.

Fail to see how that is at all relevant?