AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

No, the judge in making sentencing remarks spoke about a different case and how the woman in that case was sentenced, to explain how he'd reached his sentence in this case. The woman in this case didn't do any of those things, that was another case.

I was sympathetic when I thought she was maybe 18-20 weeks, but she was ACTUALLY between 32-34. That's disgusting and as a mum already she KNEW she was much further along than she told the clinic. I absolutely believe prison is justified and I day that as a woman who had an abortion (at 8 weeks!)

I started reading this thread but haven't got the energy to get involved. If any of you want to protest the prison sentence, this is a petition I've found:
https://www.welevelup.org/petition/abortion-is-healthcare/

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia do you believe rollercoasters should have stop buttons so you can get off halfway round too?

Adults know quite well that consent doesn't negate the fact that some decisions have consequences. Its not possible to back out of everything beyond a certain point.

I go back to my original point. It is a fact of human biology that women’s bodies aren’t their own for the purpose of continuation of the human race. Whether you think that’s right or wrong, or should or shouldn’t be the case, and whatever you think of the relative value of the life of a woman of child-bearing age and an unborn baby/foetus, this is a fact. It just is. For every woman who gladly gives her body over to this today, there will be one who doesn’t. It’s a waste of time arguing that a one-size-fits-all answer should apply at all times and in all circumstances.

The analogy to rape is stupid because you’re only looking at one thing: a woman’s lack of choice over her body. 99/100, that’s all there is to it. But pregnancy, procreation, is specific and unique. It’s also mundane and quotidian - but nonetheless a unique situation, incomparable to any other than born humans face. It’s stupid to draw analogies.

Yes.

The first is use of lethal force to prevent A from continuing to use B's body as a life support machine against B's will.

The second is killing a separate, biologically independent human being who is not using anyone's body as a life support machine and could be cared for by any competent adult who wishes to do so.

In the vast majority of cases the latter wouldn't go to prison, it'd be understood and recognised that they were struggling and support would be offered in lieu of a prison sentence. I see this being the pertinent issue in this case personally, whether prison was appropriate rather than whether her actions were justified.

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia

You make a viable baby sound like a parasite deliberately taking over the mother's body. It didn't ask to be put there. Nor is it responsible for it's existence. The mother chose to have sex and had plenty of time to get an abortion in the legal time frame. In cases of rape, exceptions should be made, although the question does still beg to be asked if she knew she was pregnant early on, why wait until the baby is viable and able to feel pain?

Are you seriously comparing stopping a recreational activity lasting single-digit minutes, where stopping it part way around would have adverse safety implications for many other people also on the ride (including those in the next ride train as many rides have two trains out ar once), to withdrawing life support from an unborn baby that has weeks left to gestate and where the consequences are only to the baby and the woman providing the life support?

Do you have the source for those numbers? They are at odds with the most recent I've seen for 24 weeks (which was the only timeline I was talking about and I didn't actually include numbers).

60% survival looks like the subset of 24 week births who get into the limited number of specialist cots in specialist baby units - rather than representing all 24 week births. That will distort the total figures.

I'd also be interested in the definition of "severe disability" in those numbers. Very few babies born at this gestation escape unscathed and 1/7 is at odds with figures for disability I've seen, even when its restricted to the 60% of thte subset who go to specialist care and survive.

And of course changes are significantly affected by demographic and family circumstances - we don't know the demographic for this woman, just that she is reported as having to return to a broken down relationship in order to put a roof over her children's heads which doesn't sound particularly advantaged.

You can be as clear as you like - doesn't mean you are right!

In my opinion, you are totally wrong.

Do you actually seriously believe this shite? It's a pity of you if you do!!

https://fn.bmj.com/content/105/3/232

You're viewing it from here. We don't know what it looked like, from there. No one, I'm sure including this woman, would choose to wait until so late just for fun. Do you seriously think she waited until the foetus could have been viable and she had to birth it at home, on purpose? No woman in her right mind would think what she did was a good plan. We don't know why she didn't abort in time, or tell anyone, or seek help, or tell the truth, but no one does what she did unless they are in a really bad place.

It is a sad case. I think she should be given a break here as it was lockdown and lots of things happened that shouldn’t have including the lack of medical appointments. Obviously 28 weeks exceeds the legal limit and she must have know she was beyond 10 weeks. However without a scan she may have believed she was below 24 weeks. Leaving 4 children without a mum will not provide justice to anyone in this case.

It is a fact of human biology that women’s bodies aren’t their own for the purpose of continuation of the human race.

And here we find the misogyny at the core of your argument: that women don't actually own their own bodies and should not expect to.

We know what happens when the State shares your views. In Romania, the State decided that women weren't having enough children. Decree 770's prohibition of abortion and contraception led to mass abandonment of children in orphanages. In China, the State decided that women were having too many children, resulting in forced abortions and forced sterilisations under the one child policy.

Women only have full human rights when we are granted full bodily sovereignty. Compromising on reproductive rights denies women their full human rights.

She is disgusting and deserves to be in prison.

@nothingcomestonothing

We could apply the 'they must have had their reasons. No one does that for fun. They must have been in a bad place' argument to a lot of crimes. That doesn't mean that we should waiver the consequences.

I have no doubt she had reasons, and no one will probably ever know them except her. She has four other kids. If she had valid reasons that could have prevented a prison sentence, you think she would have disclosed them in order to stay and be there for her other kids. She knew that she was pregnant when she was within the limit for an abortion and left it until she was 32-34 weeks.

It's not "shite" and I believe what I am writing.

My stance is internally consistent and is based on the axiom that all women have the right to bodily sovereignty, whether pregnant or not and no matter how late in pregnancy. The alternative is to draw a line somewhere during pregnancy after which we declare the woman to be a second-class citizen who doesn't have full bodily autonomy any more. That is not acceptable to me.

Drawing that line (in some US states, at or very near conception) has real-world consequences that look like women in the US being jailed for using drugs during pregnancy instead of being given drug cessation treatment and maternity care. These laws affect the poorest women and Black and First Nations women the most.

And here we find the flaw in your proposition: you are unable to accept the fact that human biology is what you call misogynistic. Like it, don't like, it's a fact that a human foetus receives all it needs for life from the mother. We haven't yet managed to grow humans anywhere other than a human uterus. So, your problem isn't the law or this judgement or whatever. It's facts that don't suit your life very modern, very Western, very immature an undeveloped (imo) life view.

Almost none of what you say, as a consequence, is relevant.

You've fallen victim to A Level philosophy-itis. You're trying to reason and logic your way through a fundamentally illogical and unreasonable situation, using language and perhaps sophistry at times. Life isn't simple, and rarely is it black and white. You do yourself a disservice trying to make it so.

It's not about the baby "asking to be put there". That's not even relevant to whether women have the right to withdraw life support from an unborn baby at any time.

I haven't and wouldn't use the term "parasite" as it's medically inaccurate. In fact, I've made a point of using "unborn baby" to make it clear that I know who dies if the woman says "enough, I don't want to be pregnant any more".

This thread is madness.

Abortion should obviously be freely available, to a defined point in the pregnancy (which has been outlined by as 22 weeks to allow for the margin of error up to 23 weeks and 6 days). It's irrefutable, that's common sense and it gives people PLENTY OF TIME to get their shit together and access the free medical care that is available across the UK.

People can't just take things into their own hands and go against the legislation that is in place to protect mother and child, just because they choose to.

Anyone who can argue that people should have a right to choose to go against the legislation because it's their right, laws that are there to safeguard every party in the process is talking utter crap.

Having a late termination is shit. It's dangerous, and it's shit. Doing so without the correct medical guidance is not only illegal, but it's fucking dangerous. I HAD the correct medical guidance and almost died in labour. Your body isn't prepared for it, the chance of haemorrhage and infection is increased, and it's not a positive experience.

It may well be true that the lady needed better mental health support - anyone going through that process does - but it doesn't change the fact that she broke the law. A law there to protect unborn babies, and their mothers.

The sentence may be harsh, but was her crime. And it was entirely avoidable.

Wow, I never realized that there were so many extreme anti-abortion people in the UK, I thought it was strictly a US thing due to our backwards Evangelical conservative population.

All you people saying this is a baby and not a fetus are discounting the fact that a mother is carrying it and it is attached to her body. You are discounting the well-being of the mother, gross.

I had a stillborn baby at 40 weeks that was very much wanted. I didn't get a death certificate or birth certificate for her because the law does not consider her to be a living person, only a fetus. Sadly she was never able to take a breath outside my body. She was not her own person because she could not have survived without me providing her her support... and sadly she didn't survive even with me trying to provide it.

The argument for infanticide is dangerous territory that I hope none of you anti-choicers ever have to face. If you lose a pregnancy and it's considered a baby instead of a fetus then you will face investigation into what you did while pregnant and whether there was any way you could have caused the pregnancy loss or could have prevented it etc.

Get out of here with your backwards draconian laws towards women and your sexist attitudes.

@rowanoak People are not anti abortion. This is a case of someone breaking the law and doing something very cruel. They had plenty of opportunity to use the UKs very reasonable abortion services.