AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

Women are in no way WHATSOEVER inferior to men. We are different to men. And we deserve better than abortion.

But I do not think she knew this is what would happen to the fetus. I imagine she thought it would be just like having an abortion at ten weeks. Can people not see the desperate situation this poor woman was in.

Most are anti abortion after 24 weeks.

Not the same as anti abortion.

Your complete faith in a man you have never met, based purely on press reports, is odd

Your portrayl of him as the victim in the whole sorry scenario is delusional.

All of your posts are dripping with judgement and misogyny.

There's no logical reason it's [slavery] wrong

And I'm criticised for my view point? JFC.

Slavery is wrong because it sucks to be the person who is the slave. Slavery is wrong because if person A can be enslaved, so can I, and I don't like that idea. It's simple application of the "sauce for the goose is good for the gander" principle.

Killing healthy viable babies is something you either believe is wrong or not.

Incorrect. The right of a baby, or anyone else, to life does not trump the right of any person to refuse to be used as a human incubator or other form of life support. I'm giving Judith Thomson's "violinist" argument here. That's Philosophy Professor Judith Thomson, for those of you who are accusing me of A-level arguments.

We're unsure at this point. But the pills were taken over 3 days so it's possible the placenta separated early on which will have starved the baby of oxygen and caused her death.

My point still stands, there are posters on this thread who are anti-abortion

But not equal then?

Not sure what could possibly be 'better' than an enhanced ability to control our bodies, which inherently bear almost all the risk of sexual activity where men bear none.

It's sad, but it's still not ok. Just like how there have been women who panic and kill their babies after birth. It can't be seen to be ok because then others will think it's an option to consider.

Puberty blockers are not comparable at all. Abortion is about not staying pregnant and is a well-understood medical procedure. Puberty blockers interfere with the development of a born child's body and are so poorly-understood as to be unlicensed for that use in the UK.

And we deserve better than abortion.

You personally never have to have an abortion. Nobody is saying you should.

But for many women it's a lifesaving, positive, realistic, practical way of helping them. Many women do not want children. They want to do other things with their lives.

Do you think other women should not be allowed to have abortions during the early legal period that they can access them?

I don't think it's on that the agency gets off completely. They gave out the pills, they should bear some responsibility.

I would argue that the unfounded assumptions that the man is an abuser, with no evidence whatsoever bar the fact she concealed a pregnancy, are dripping with misandry.

The fact about there being three men coming to explains very clearly why she wanted to conceal the pregnancy and people are still intent on thinking badly of the man who had sod all to do with this and has done nothing wrong. Quite the opposite. He tried to save Lily's life.

Why would she move her and her kids in with him during lockdown if he was an abuser?

Christ. Why do you hate men so much?

And yet my ex committed three potentially deadly attacks on me whilst I was pregnant and nothing could be done. Women will never be equal.

Don't pretend moral outrage that I'm suggesting slavery is acceptable. You know I'm not so it's pathetic.

Your logical argument against slavery is based on very shallow moral reasoning at the level of power is might. We'll all agree not to do it in case it's me next type pact, rather than the actual reason that eventually overcame slavery which was the sacredness and essential equality of every human being.
That's not logic that's a belief in the nature of humans which is quite a modern belief.

Slavery existed for thousands of years because it made sense. Those with power would exploit those without it. Everyone basically accepted this was a natural, if unpleasant, order. Some people could be exploited if they were weak they were worth less.

The Germans had logic in the extermination camps.

You are dangerously naive if you think logic always leads to moral outcomes.

Yes, women are equal to men.

And yes, I agree women bear most of the risk of sexual activity. It doesn't follow to me that access to abortion levels things up though.

I think it lets men off the hook. The sexual revolution has not been good for women (or society) in my view.

No, I don't think abortion should be legal.

This is full of SPUC-style sentiment but short on facts.

'torturing babies to death'
'horrible deaths for healthy babies'
'undoubtedly painful deliberate killing'
'imagine it being deliberately slowly killed'

Has anyone on the thread advocated for any of those things? I haven't seen it, if they did. I don't believe we know if the baby breathed, or was conscious, I haven't seen that in the reports? No one deliberately tortured a baby. This woman made a horrible and extremely bad choice, I can only imagine how desperate you'd have to be to do what she did.

I'm autistic. I do not want, and would not be able to cope with, a child. I have also been raped twice.

Had either of my rapists impregnated me, what would you suggest for me? Bearing in mind that I would be enduring pregnancy symptoms whilst autistic and giving birth nine months after the trauma of a rape to a baby that I didn't want and can't to cope with.

I can only imagine how desperate you'd have to be to do what she did.

There was never any need for it to reach the point of desperation. She could have had a safe, humane termination in 2019.

If you read my earlier posts, you will see that I agree that all the suggestions that she was being abused were undermining the arguments being made.

A woman does not have to be perfectly virtuous or a victim to be able to access an abortion.

You know nothing of the real context to this whole scenario and neither do I. Nowhere have I ever mentioned hating men? It's really odd to take the side of a random man you don't know and your particular judgements of the woman involved are very specifically awful.

Well I've been asking for information on how the baby died.
Seems maybe starved over days or suffocated?

I'd call that painful torture.

If you have evidence it was brief and painless, share, I've been asking.

"You are like me and what can be done to you can be done to me" is just another way of saying "we are all essentially equal". I'm not religious so "sacred" is meaningless to me.

I know you didn't ask me but what I would recommend for you in those circumstances would be a safe, humane abortion professionally administered before the 24 week cut off period.

Both are medical interventions to stop natural biological processes.

If those interventions are not used the process isn't forced it just continues to naturally occur.

The teen doesn't want puberty.
The woman doesn't want a baby.

But neither are forced on them.