AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

I don’t even know where to start here. She needed the choice and it wasn’t there.

Also you assume the sec was consensual and she knew the risks ? Were you there ?

@LOC2 - yes it makes a very big difference to her intent and how culpable she was.

She had a good knowledge and deceived the pill service.

She will probably claim she is mentally incapable but it looks like the evidence of her own thoughts and actions is strongly against that idea.

Just proves the point of data from US that 94pcnt abortions are repeat and by women who are in relationships using it was awya of birth control.

Doesn't really matter if abortions are repeat or not. Many forms of birth control fail, it's not unusual. Abortion is legal and needed at times.
Sending this woman to prison isn't going to help her 4 children.

Well I believe as early as possible as late as necessary.

I had my own choice ripped away in circumstances where I wanted my baby and I was forced to a second trimester abortion. It didn’t make me anti abortion it made me more pro choice than ever. Nobody should ever have their choice taken away.

I think as well there are so few late abortions performed it wouldn’t cause any issues to make it available as late as needed

I don't agree with any posters blaming the doctors. If medical professionals are blamed for this when it is the individual who lied, it could make access to termination incredibly hard for other women in the future and set women's rights back decades.

I also agree that she must have known how far along she was.

No woman should go to prison or be punished for making such a decision about her own pregnancy and body, whether she knew how far along she was or not.

This was regarding my relative.

And yes, at 32 weeks you would not have guessed that she was pregnant - and they were slim build! If I hadn't been there in person I wouldn't have believed it, the GP was really shocked as well.

The fact it was 2020 And lockdown as well I would say that makes things even worse for her and should be a huge factor considered in her obvious panic ? Nobody knew what covid was going to do she could have been panicking about that as well

I knew few people who ended up pg with 4th and 5th children while on the coil - it was a weird statical hotspot apparently and investigated as there were concerns about there being so many - they didn't realise till late 20 + weeks and several had to go back to GP several times with symptoms.

I think posterior placenta pg have fewer movements felt as well.

So while I'd be very surprised is she really was that far along there could be reasons.

However court will be presented with all the information about how far along she was any searches she did and what she told the service prescribing to her - so have to wait and see what happens.

Normalizing infanticide and making it non criminal offense will “benefit us as society”?

Without having seen the searches... without a scan, you can never be 100% sure. Maybe she was looking up the possible alternative scenarios as she was starting to doubt herself.

Or, maybe she knew. In which case, she would have to have been pretty damn desperate to even try it.

4 children... lockdown. Have we all forgotten how awful that was? It's entirely possible her mental health was shot to pieces.

That's without even considering the possibility that the child was not conceived in happy circumstances.

The whole thing is desperately, desperately sad. I think having to live with the knowledge that the child could have been viable is enough of a sentence in itself. A lot of her family have distanced themselves from her too.

What an awful situation for everyone involved.
I don’t think sending her to prison would be a benefit to society in any way.

I wonder what was going on in her life to do this, it seems she knew she was further along and she would have known that she would have to give birth to a formed foetus at that stage and how risky that could be. She must have been desperate.

Often a woman who has multiple children has a uterus that’s been stretched many times and is actually less sensitive to fetal movements , add in factors like placenta placement, possible weight gain with age ? It’s not the case ‘she must have known ‘

And actually even if she did know she deserved her choice

4 children... lockdown. Have we all forgotten how awful that was? It's entirely possible her mental health was shot to pieces.

Some people won't care about how her mental health could have been. It's likely her mental health was suffering, many many peoples were in lockdown.

This is how I feel, she must have been desperate and we don’t know all the information. Imagine doing in desperation what you thought was right and ending up in court

Our society can barely cope with the unwanted children and troubled families we already have. Why make things worse by sending desperate women to prison? We need to look at how we can avoid people getting into such a desperate situation.

I think as well there are so few late abortions performed it wouldn’t cause any issues to make it available as late as needed

Late abortions are already given when needed in the UK, in situations of grave mental or physical threat to mother or child. So I assume you must wish it to be available when not needed? The issue with this case is that it was during lockdown and presumably the woman was unable to see her GP, which does make it different to usual circumstances. I am very sorry to hear you were forced to have a termination and hope you have had support with it.

Exactly.

I was pregnant in 2020. It was terrifying

I would be more inclined to think about the welfare of her other 4 children.

No good reason to send her to prison at all.

@HomeEducator Replied to you above and forgot to tag, sorry.

And actually even if she did know she deserved her choice

Maternity services in lockdown were badly hit - a lot of other hospital services were as well - none of it any where near ideal. Even getting childcare in lockdown was much harder. It's a very unfortunate situation all round.

Thats without even considering the possibility that the child was not conceived in happy circumstances

was going to say exactly the same. Sending her to prison is going to achieve nothing. She pleaded guilty and there’s questions around her mental state during that plea.

I feel nothing but sorrow for the poor lady. What a decision to make, what a thing to go through. What a thing to live with. Prosecution is not in anyone’s interest.

There’s a bit of a difference between “16 weeks and within the legal limit for abortion but lied about being under 10 weeks to get pills during lockdown” and “28 weeks, well over the legal limit, purposely killed a baby which had been kicking for a couple of months and could have survived outside the womb”. The former is borderline, the latter is intentionally killing a child. I don’t think a prison sentence is appropriate but she needs counselling and community service or something.

England + Wales:

In 2021, 43% of women undergoing abortions had had one or more previous abortions.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/abortion-statistics-for-england-and-wales-2021/abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2021

A mother of four had a late termination during lockdown due to not being able to access adequate medical care.

How likely is it that the above scenario will happen again? What are we trying to prevent?

I can't begin to imagine the harm that locking her up will cause to her four children, who are here. I would wager one of the reasons she wanted to abort in the first place was because she wanted to take care of the four children she already had and didn't think she could cope with a fifth.

How sad for her desire to want to look after her children to take her away from them.