Not To Tell My Employer

[Charliesunnysky10]

I'm struggling financially, but my 9-5 weekday office job pays minimum wage and I'm getting further into debt. In the past 3 months I've had to replace the broken boiler, sort the roof, and pay for repairs on my car until it eventually became unviable and I had to sell it.

I want to work my way out of the debt and also get out in the evenings and weekends so I'm not home worrying, and a job with these hours seemed the perfect solution.

But I asked informally a year ago when a friend suggested I come to work with her in a local coffee shop as they were extending the hours into the evenings for a bar. I was told permission will not be granted because it may impact on my ability to do my day job.

Since then, my financial situation has worsened and I spend hours in the evening with no money to go out and wishing I could put these hours to good use. My friend's bar is now a huge success and she persuaded me to apply. I was interviewed for the job and have been offered it. The manager said they will try to give me weekend hours rather than weekdays when I'm at my day job, but there will inevitably be weekday late evenings here and there. I don't go to bed till after 11pm anyway, so it's not like this will make a big difference and I felt so happy to be getting out and meeting people again.

Today, the manager messaged me to supply reference details. I had planned not to tell my boss and if they ever found out I'd have proved I can do both roles, and I will accept the punishment.

I'm not deceitful by nature, but I'm angry that I'm not allowed to get out of debt and need to put this first. I don't want to leave this job as I've been here 10 years and my co-workers are so lovely. I like the job here too, but it just doesn't pay well.

The problem I have is the reference - can I ask my former manager who left just over a year ago? She can hardly comment favourably on my honesty when I'm being so duplicitous, not asking my current boss - she will wonder why I'm not asking them. And she may know I'm required to seek permission.

I'm in a mess and I don't know where to turn.

Oh, just seen this op , from link poster made around legal cases
it says
”Where an employee has more than one job, all of the employers involved are responsible for ensuring that the employee does not work more than 48 hours per week under the Working Time Regulations 1998. Reasonable enquiries should be made with the employee in this situation and if the employer is concerned that this limit may be exceeded, the employee should be asked to sign an opt put agreement.”

so, if you’re going to do this second job you need to keep your hours below 48 to n TOTAL, or they may have a legitimate business case to refuse you. If you’re going to keep to below 48, put this in your written request too, clearly stating you will not exceed the working time regulations to support your business case.

Is it actually going to be worth it, in the end, once you've been taxed on your second job? You might find you're getting just a few extra quid in return for hours and hours of extra work.

🫤she’s on min wage so total tax and ni burden is 25% max. When you’ve n low wage , 75% of low wage as extra IS a very big deal.

They’ll find out via your tax code

Re your tax code - you can ask a second job employer to simply put you on a Basic Rate (BR) tax code. That means that all your tax free allowance is deducted from your first job, and all your income from your second job is taxed at the full 20%.

This means that your tax code from your first job will not change. It will only work if you earn more than £12500 a year from your first job though.

Go for honesty with your current employer. Explain that you can't make ends meet on your current salary, so you cannot continue indefinitely working solely for them. You can put in a bit about how much you'd like to stay with them if you want.
Ask permission, explain why you don't think that it will impact on your work for them, and suggest a review to confirm that after a couple of months..

No, they won't. I wish people would stop saying this as if it's true.

@AdInfinitum12 well every year HMRC tell my employer a tax code splitting my allowance between my two jobs, every year I phone HMRC to get them to move the allowance back and they then notify my employer again. So how is it not true that payroll see this back and forth. You might have a payroll team who don’t care, but they certainly have visibility of a second job

Absolutely yes, they can, if it is in the contract. It is quite common actually, and it could very easily be a dismissable offence. So anyone saying they can't (or suggesting they write to their MP like there is anything the MP can do about it - other than highlight the OP has done it!). I am not saying whether I agree with it or not, because circumstances vary enormously, but working excessive hours at mutiple jobs can impact on health and on performance - and the full-time employer has a right to have a say on that. Whether you like it or not, it's legal. There is a vast difference between not working evening and weekends with a full time job but going to bed late, and working a full time job and then working evenings and weekends as well.

OP, no matter what anyone says about their opinion of this, or how you should get around it, those are things for you to decide the risk on. But be aware that you will be in breach of contract, you know the rules, and you could lose your job over it. Whether you use a previous manager or not, lying has a way of coming out. All it will take is a few collegaues to happen to decide to have a drink at that bar, a social media post read by the wrong person, or any other of a million ways that people trip up over lies.

A tax code can absolutely tell you if someone is receipt of other taxable income.

However since it is clear that most people do not understand PAYE, tax codes or income tax, the chances are that an 'employer' would also not understand this apart from the accounts/payroll team.

I think you should do it and if the fall out is moving main jobs then do it.

You can explain away tax codes by saying you have a second income stream. You don’t have to explain further.

Tbh fuck em. It’s minimum wage. They need to get a grip.

As an accountant, I assure you they do not have visibility of a second job.
Your payroll team will receive notice of a new tax code. They will not under any circumstances receive the calculations behind that tax code, there is absolutely no way they would be able to assume a second job. Tax code notices are sent to employers for a multitude of reasons: underpayment of tax in a prior year, estimated underpaid tax in current year, payment of a tax bill coded out instead of paid by self assessment, reclaiming of expenses, professional fees, mileage, taxing of rental income. Literally hundreds of reasons why someone's tax code might change and the employer is privy to none of the detail. All they see is a letter saying effectively "Joe Bloggs new tax code 453L from 1st April 2023."

As I've said on previous posts, employers do not receive the detail behind any tax code changes and they cannot tell if someone has a second job. "Other taxable income" does not mean a second job. It could be rental income or many other things, an overpayment of tax from a prior year inflating your tax code this year etc.

In fact what's more likely is provided OP uses their entire PA in their current job that they won't have a change to their tax code at all, with the new job being coded to BR.

I apologise as I haven't RTFT, but the clause in your contract will likely be to protect the employer from the 48 hour maximum working week. We had this with a member of staff lately, who we discovered had a second job that took him over 48 hours a week. It didn't conflict professionally, but as soon as we became aware of it, we had to get him to sign an opt out agreement, or we were the ones that could be in trouble if something happened.

See link here

In terms of your PAYE coding notice, this would likely change. While you'll get sent a detailed coding notice explaining how they've calculated it, your current (and new) employer won't see the detail. If you currently work for a larger organisation, there's a very good chance the payroll team wouldn't even question it and would process it.

Do sign up for a Personal Tax Account online though as HMRC will often get the code wrong. If you think it's wrong, call HMRC with details of your earnings and they can check it and update it as necessary.

I don’t think there is anyway my employer would think the most logical reason for my tax code changing is down to rental income claiming expenses or claiming of professional fees 🤣

there might be a little difference in the rationale of taxcode changes between an accountant and someone like me, where Occam’s razor suggests the only reason for code changes is me moonlighting in another job

I'm pretty sure you have to declare any other employment to your main employer, possibly for PAYE reasons.

This is absolutely not how it works.

Which bit? I have accepted that my knowledge of the PAYE/Tax issue was not from a place of expertise.

The second job will have to be ASKED to KEEP you on BR when HMGov issue a recoding notice to both employers.

And being suddenly recoded to the codings a second job would entail almost invariably means another job. And if a company has an actual second job policy, then yes, they may ask the accounts team for notification of any changes. Unusual, but having a second job policy is also unusual.

Look, if you don't know this stuff then don't post. It isn't helpful and no-one but you cares if you need to have the last word.

You don't get taxed and NI'd at a higher rate just for having two jobs. Quite the opposite in fact!

Your total income is taxed, based on the relevant tax rates in force (i.e. 20% or 40%).

Everyone gets one personal allowance per year (£12,570 for this year) on which no tax is paid. This would likely get allocated to the first job in its entirety, meaning that the second job is taxed in full.

While you only get one personal allowance for tax purposes, for NI purposes, there is a NI free element per job.

So, if you had two people, one earning £20k in one job and another earning £10k each in two jobs, both would pay the same amount in tax, but the person working two jobs would pay less NI.

HMRC have to estimate how is best to tax multiple jobs, hence why they issue coding notices. As mentioned above, they don't always get this right at the time, but they will ultimately correct any under or over-tax when they carry out their annual review.

You are correct, however, that if you're operating as a freelancer you can offset some of your genuine business costs against this. You also have the hassle of doing a personal tax return and making separate NI payments.

You can't work at a bar as a freelancer though, so it's not relevant for OP.

@HurryShadow I'm contracted to 37.5 hrs in my day job and the evening/weekend job I've been offered is 16 hrs. That takes me to 51.5hrs, so just over the 48. And will I need to opt out of the 48 hr working with my day job employer?

@Allmyplantsdie If HR notice a change of my tax code they will absolutely suspect a 2nd job as the only communication I've had with them over the past 7 months has been related to me asking for a pay review or asking how to go about how to seek permission for secondary employment.

@LemonSwan I'd love to be able to walk away from this, but the fact is I do love the job and the other people and I'd be left high & dry if I get fired so I think I'll have to bite the bullet and risk them saying no.

Yep absolutely. I agreed above that my wording was poor in my original post and have accepted that I was no expert. I can only assume that my secondary employer was also paying extra NI contributions as I was losing around 30-35% of my pay. I never had a payslip so couldn't check it. The company that did that no longer exists and I have learned a valuable lesson.

The personal tax return is not really a hassle for me now as I am used to it, although as previously noted there are probably things I could claim for but don't. I don't earn enough to want to pay an accountant (circa £2-3,000pa) but I choose not to pay the additional NI as I pay the full amount in my full time job.

Yep, its absolutely not relevant to OP, as I have now ascertained, so do not want to hijack the thread any further 😀

@Haffiana Thank you. So I need to ask my new/second employer to keep me on BR tax when HMRC issue a recoding notice? And ask the first job's HR to opt me out of the 48 hrs working week?

you will need to opt out for BOTH employers- can’t you ask for less hours in second job

id also say that working more than 48 would give reasonable cause for your current employer to refuse your permission.

the 48 hours limit is there for a reason- it was based on Heath outcomes, death rates etc from epidemiological studies over years . Ok, it is averages on large populations - but it will likely long term have some impact on you. Be careful of your health , particularly mental health

OP this is a really silly idea.

Go to your current employer and say 'I literally cannot make ends meet on this salary. I really need a second job (not I really want one), or a need a pay rise'. I have no doubt they can accommodate this and simply don't want to.

The stress of keeping up this charade and not being 'found out' will be excrutiating for you, not to mention the burnout.