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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Scotland, (Wales and NI) has the right to self determination?

204 replies

Fragmentsof2022 · 24/11/2022 05:37

*MNHQ has deleted an image at the request of the OP"

So the Supreme Court voted yesterday to not allow Scotland Indy ref 2 without the permission of Westminster, ending the idea that Scotland (and wales, NI) are participants in a voluntary union.

International law states that:

“Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”

So, Aibu to think that Scotland (and Wales, Ni) has the right to decide it’s own future if it wants? And that includes the right to another referendum if it wants?

Interesting image doing the rounds on Twitter! I speak as an “Indy curious” Welsh person who had never considers Welsh independence until recently because we have always been told we were too poor, too small etc and I don’t nescessarily believe that anymore!

OP posts:
Ifailed · 24/11/2022 06:40

Why not England as well, they're all part of the UK?

Grumpyoldpersonwithcats · 24/11/2022 06:42

Where do you draw the line though?
Home rule for Cornwall?
Home rule for Beaconsfield perhaps?

user374698 · 24/11/2022 06:44

England too

devildeepbluesea · 24/11/2022 06:45

Being Welsh I completely agree.

Being a feminist I can’t help being relieved this time that it’s been refused.

the80sweregreat · 24/11/2022 06:45

I think that they should let the Scottish people decide and let the SNP have their referendum
I'm not Scottish.
Just my point of view though and I know it's much more complicated than this.

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 24/11/2022 06:46

i think independence is being pushed but ultimately it is a bad thing. Divide and conquer. Labour and the Conservatives need to step up in Scotland and stop letting Jimmy Cranky cause division. Need to stop the hate and find the love.

NuNameNuMe · 24/11/2022 06:48

England has the vote already. It was England that voted for brexit. It's England that votes in these Tory loons.

Dammitthisisshit · 24/11/2022 06:49

There’s already been a Scottish referendum though. The result was to stay in the union. You can’t keep calling a vote until you get the answer you want. Referendums cost a huge amount of money and divert a lot of attention away from other issues, important issues.

I think a vote every generation is fine (if it’s wanted, not just automatically), so say every 20 years? But not more than that.

MajorCarolDanvers · 24/11/2022 06:51

We already voted No

monsteronahill · 24/11/2022 06:51

the80sweregreat · 24/11/2022 06:45

I think that they should let the Scottish people decide and let the SNP have their referendum
I'm not Scottish.
Just my point of view though and I know it's much more complicated than this.

Didn't they do that with the first referendum that voted to not become independent? Genuinely curious on how many times it would be considered normal to re hold it?

I understand the logic linking it to the self determination idea, but in my head when you are part of a union you then there are rules on how to get out of it?

I think an independent Scotland wouldn't be something I would be dead set against, although I think some of the ideas floated by the SNP about retaining certain things don't quite make sense if they are independent. However I'm just not sure how many times an indyref (considering the last one was meant to be a once in a generation event!) they want to vote on it?

Theunamedcat · 24/11/2022 06:54

Dammitthisisshit · 24/11/2022 06:49

There’s already been a Scottish referendum though. The result was to stay in the union. You can’t keep calling a vote until you get the answer you want. Referendums cost a huge amount of money and divert a lot of attention away from other issues, important issues.

I think a vote every generation is fine (if it’s wanted, not just automatically), so say every 20 years? But not more than that.

This!!!^

Snp are like petulant children using pester power to get what they want they said it was a once in a generation vote its mot even been TEN years yet plus there are some very fundamental questions they won't snswer

Overthebow · 24/11/2022 06:54

Scotland had a referendum and voted no.

DownNative · 24/11/2022 06:59

You're being selective about what international law actually says about self-determination here.

In reality, self-determination is subordinate to the right of unitary sovereign states to maintain territorial integrity.

The only times self-determination takes precedence is in cases of colonialism and oppression by the sovereign parent state.

"In a UN context, the right to self-determination in its external shape is applicable to people (not to national, ethnic, and religious minorities, whose rights are recognized in Article 27 of the ICCPR, 1966) or to the nations in the cases of: a) a colonial context; or b) in a situation of any foreign domination or occupation."

"Today, it may be concluded that international law bestows on all peoples the right to self-determination, but that the right to external self-determination, exercised through remedial secession, only applies in extreme circumstances, to colonized and severely persecuted peoples."

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are NOT colonies but INTEGRAL parts of the UK. And they are definitely NOT oppressed by the UK.

So, under international law they have no right to secession. But this does not mean they don't have a right to self-determination. However, that self-determination doesn't appear the way you think it does!

As long as unitary sovereign states provide some degree of power to their regions they have the entitlement in international law to protection of their territorial integrity. In the UK, that means devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland which is the extent of self-determination they're entitled to under international law.

International law makes it very clear that territorial integrity takes precedence over self-determination (except in two circumstances) and it further states there is no democratic right to secession.

Secession is not a democratic right

"Currently, among the constitutional laws of the world, only two states carry the right of secession in their constitution: Ethiopia, and the Federation of Saint Kitts and Nevis."

- My Country, Europe

“In the Federal Republic of Germany, which is a nation-state based on the constituent power of the German people, states are not ‘masters of the constitution’.

Therefore there is no room under the constitution for individual states to attempt to secede. This violates the constitutional order.”

- Ruling from the Constitutional Court of the Federal Republic of Germany.

"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all."

- Section Two of the Spanish Constitution

"France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic."

- Article One of the French Constitution

"The Republic, one and indivisible, recognizes and promotes local autonomies; implements in those services which depend on the State the fullest measure of administrative decentralization; accords the principles and methods of its legislation to the requirements of autonomy and decentralization."

- Article Five of the Italian Constitution

"It is clear that international law does not specifically grant component parts of sovereign states the legal right to secede unilaterally from their "parent" state....

The various international documents that support the existence of a people's right to self-determination also contain parallel statements supportive of the conclusion that the exercise of such a right must be sufficiently limited to prevent threats to an existing state's territorial integrity or the stability of relations between sovereign states...

A state whose government represents the whole of the people or peoples resident within its territory, on a basis of equality and without discrimination, and respects the principles of self-determination in its own internal arrangements, is entitled to the protection under international law of its territorial integrity."

- Canadian Supreme Court ruling on the issue of secession

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

- United States of America Pledge Of Allegiance

"The answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, ‘one Nation, indivisible.’)”

- Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia in 2006

“Article 52 of the Constitution is a unitarian structure, indivisible, indecomposable."

Dean of the Brazilian Supreme Court, Judge Celso de Mello

"WHEREAS the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth...."

- Preamble to the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Australia

You are, therefore, being unreasonable.

FourTeaFallOut · 24/11/2022 07:03

That's a fucking awful picture, I know that much.

DownNative · 24/11/2022 07:04

@Fragmentsof2022 and that's a disgusting, emotionally manipulative image in your OP that's clearly designed to mislead and distort the actual domestic as well as international law on the issue of secession.

Shameful!

flamingogold · 24/11/2022 07:05

That picture is particularly awful when that's what the SNP and Greens are doing to women across Scotland.

DownNative · 24/11/2022 07:06

NuNameNuMe · 24/11/2022 06:48

England has the vote already. It was England that voted for brexit. It's England that votes in these Tory loons.

No, England is NOT a unitary sovereign state and has zero rights to secession just like every other regions in Europe that demands it, e.g. Catalonia.

BringMeTea · 24/11/2022 07:06

Deliberately revolting image depicting rape. Nice work OP.

FourTeaFallOut · 24/11/2022 07:08

Apparently using iconography of a woman being raped is just fine for political purposes, in a country where you could not point out a woman in a line up for fear of being labelled a bigot and where increasing pressure is being made to make it easier for male rapists find themselves in female prisons with the power of magical thinking.

Fragmentsof2022 · 24/11/2022 07:10

@DownNative i didn’t create the bloody image! It was doing the rounds on Twitter yesterday after the Supreme Court ruling!

OP posts:
YellowTreeHouse · 24/11/2022 07:12

Oh don’t be so silly.

They got their once in a lifetime vote. They said no.

BringMeTea · 24/11/2022 07:12

Boooooooooo. Poor defence there. Twitter had it so it must be just fine. Hmmmm.

Everydaywheniwakeup · 24/11/2022 07:14

I don't think Scotland should have independence, it's clear it's not universally popular among the people and the issues around women's rights indicate some very odd discussions which are incredibly worrying for me.
Re Welsh independence - we are too small and too poor. It would be a bloody disaster.

heldinadream · 24/11/2022 07:16

Fragmentsof2022 · 24/11/2022 07:10

@DownNative i didn’t create the bloody image! It was doing the rounds on Twitter yesterday after the Supreme Court ruling!

But you shared it here.

Fragmentsof2022 · 24/11/2022 07:16

@Grumpyoldpersonwithcats beavonsfield isn’t a country- Scotland, wales and Ireland are countries!

OP posts: