To think Scotland, (Wales and NI) has the right to self determination?

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*MNHQ has deleted an image at the request of the OP"

So the Supreme Court voted yesterday to not allow Scotland Indy ref 2 without the permission of Westminster, ending the idea that Scotland (and wales, NI) are participants in a voluntary union.

International law states that:

“Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”

So, Aibu to think that Scotland (and Wales, Ni) has the right to decide it’s own future if it wants? And that includes the right to another referendum if it wants?

Interesting image doing the rounds on Twitter! I speak as an “Indy curious” Welsh person who had never considers Welsh independence until recently because we have always been told we were too poor, too small etc and I don’t nescessarily believe that anymore!

What makes Scotland or Wales a country, but not Cornwall? What's the difference?

I live in the ancient Kingdom of Mercia. It's still acknowledged to this day - our local/regional police force is named after it. Nobody has ever given the slightest glimmer of a chance that I and my fellow Mercians might be given a vote as to whether the citizens of our Kingdom can have independence from the rest of the UK - just because my ancestors from centuries ago decided/forced a union on us.

Of all of the historic nations, kingdoms, regions, principalities and distinct people groups of the UK, only one has ever been given the privilege of a binding vote on independence from the UK in the last 100 years.

The EU has a lot of regional funding separate from central government funding - it promotes regional identities.

Free movement, immigration - generally seen as positive in Scotland. Plenty of young people want to travel before settling.

The EU in general is more left wing than the UK, Scotland is (generally) left of centre and has more of a socialist (higher tax, more services) type of government. It is easier to feel more aligned with a central government that is closer to your political views.

I was all for Welsh independence until the devolved powers were granted.

You think the English NHS is bad? The Welsh one is far worse. Same with our schools.

Wales now has a dictatorship - whatever Welsh labour and it's partners Plaid want they get. Endless "consultations" which amazingly always gives the results they want even if the majority opinion is against them. No one but Drakeford and his cronies want the tourist tax but it will go through. The Senedd is all but irrelevant now.

I can explain Why Scotland might be happier in the EU

1: Europe is a larger trading partner than the UK
2: the European Parliament is more democratic than the UK one ( because our first past the post system is nothing like democracy )

Europe might be a larger trading partner but over 60% of Scotland's exports are with Ruk. Exactly the same issue with Brexit - the world is a bigger trading partner than the EU, but you have to find the markets....

“…and stop letting Jimmy Cranky cause division.”

@Ritasueandbobtoo9 Boring 🥱 Rude. Chauvinistic. And stupid. Be smarter than this.

Exactly. We have a stupid situation that Wales and Scotland have devolved assemblies where they can make decisions for their own 'countries', maybe they should then give up their Westminster voting powers for discussions influencing England only. We seem to be working towards a federal system when it suits Scotland and Wales only.

The biggest Brexit-voting county in Wales was Blaenau Gwent. Not exactly holiday home central. Kindly point to that "research" add I'll gladly debunk it for you.

In fact, the places that showed the strongest Leave votes were deprived ex-mining areas. Wealthy areas such as Cardiff and the Vale which are far more likely to attract English "incomers" voted Remain.

Yes, drown out or straight up overrule. Furlough was a great xample. The Scottish government wanted to extend furlough support in Scotland as they didn't believe covid was going to manageable by the time the scheme was intially meant to end. They approached the UK government, who were the only ones who could approve this, and were promptly told no. Yet only a few weeks later, when it became clear England would need ongoing support, the UK government extended furlough.

But my bigger gripe is with how the union is administered as it is complete skewed towards England.

If Scotland wants to build a new hospital it has to do so out of an existing budget, or borrow from the NLF, which is already accounted for in the UK budget, has strict limitations on how much can be borrowed, and has to be paid back by Scotland from future budgets.

If England wants to build a new hospital they can simply increase total borrowing, which Scotland (and the other home nations have to contribute to repaying).

It's like having a credit card for the union, Scotland can only use a set percet of the the current balance, which they have to pay back before being allowed to borrow more. They also have to check it is ok to borrow the money, and pay towards servicing the total balance of the card too.

England can use the full balance when they want, no questions asked, and when thats not enough they can increase the limit on the card without consulting anyone else.

The fundamental flaw of the union is that there are 3 devolved parliments and one central. In my mind there are only 3 ways to put the independence issue to bed.

1. Give Scotland independence.

2. Disband the devolved parliments, erase the idea of Scotland, England, Wales, and Northern Ireland as individual countries and create a United Kingdom with just one identity.

3. Create a devolved parliament for England, ensuring they are then bound by the same restrictions as the rest of the home nations face and leaving the UK government to administer only central issues, agreed upon by all four home nations.

I'm not sure why the rejoining of the EU would be a stumbling block for you considering that is even further away than Scottish independence. It's like worrying about how to grow food on Mars before we've even put a person on the planet.

Your final point just backs up the benefit of independence. Governments will always gravitate towards the majority. England is the majority so Scotland will never get a fair deal (unless balances are built into the system). Rural Scotland has far more chance of bending the ear of a Scottish government than it does a UK one.

It's also much easier to govern for 5.5 million people than 68 million people, especially when that 5.5 million people would also take ownership of around 1/3 of all resources currently used for the 68 million.

Does anyone know what the SNP's views are on the question of Shetland independence? The move to make Shetland it's own territory, in the same way the Isle of Man is. I can't seem to find anything on that. Presumably the SNP would have to support it - although of course it would take away a big chunk of Scottish oil and gas reserves.

I certainly don't see any greater case for Scotland, Wales or NI to have their own independence referendums than for any county, city, island or region in any part of the UK. Borders are just artificial boundaries based on natural barriers and the point where military conquests ended in the past. Wales for example was never a country in its own right, it was a bunch of "independent" groups before being consolidated as part of the UK.

oucha! you mentioned furlough which doesn’t back up your argument in my opinion or convince me at all.
I don’t think furlough would have been an option if we had been independent, certainly would not have been as generous. We are paying for it now aren’t we. Lots of businesses going bust round here, hmmm wonder why? Tax bills in January? With hindsight was it the best use of our money and the snp wanted to extend it?! My own opinion of furlough; it was abused and lots of folk took the michael.

On the contrary, the Brexit analogy is very flawed since you're NOT comparing like for like.

The European Union is absolutely NOT a unitary sovereign state in any sense whatsoever. Since it is not, it has ZERO entitlement in international law to territorial integrity protection. Given this legal and political reality, the EU is in no position to deny any member state from leaving it.

The UK is in a completely different position to the EU. In fact, every Member State is in the same position as the UK in this in that they are all:

1. Unitary Sovereign States

2. Under international law entitled to protection of territorial integrity

Under international law, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are NOT sovereign. Likewise, Catalonia in Spain, Quebec in Canada, California in the USA, Bavaria in Germany and many more are NOT sovereign.

It is only the central government of any unitary sovereign state that IS sovereign under international law.

All the regions named above are only entitled to a form of limited self-government known as devolution, decentralisation and federalism in each respective sovereign state. This is the only form of self-determination these areas actually are entitled to under international law.

Likewise, the Commonwealth is NOT a unitary sovereign state by any means much like the EU isn't. In fact, more than one unitary sovereign state has left the Commonwealth, e.g. Republic of Ireland. Again, you don't have a valid point.

Like for like must be kept in mind. False Equivalence is a logical fallacy.

I genuinely think independence will not be the utopia it is assumed to be, or that rejoining the EU is likely to happen any quicker than about a decade, or that any country is likely to be able to join the EU and not adopt the Euro. However, a Union is only a Union if all parties want to be in it.

If there is a majority support for an Independent Scotland (or Wales, or NI) in the numbers that Scotland can agree would be enough to trigger it, then another referendum makes sense. It comes at a cost which we've all seen with Brexit (financial, division within the country and in terms of governments not focussing on day-to-day running), but Scotland/Wales/NI may be prepared to pay that cost to achieve automony.

I guess the first step would be to understand the country's appetite for a referendum - especially considering the cost and disruption all referendums tend to bring. I know earlier this year the Scottish Nos still outnumbered the Yes' but appreciate lots has happened since then and this might have changed?

How do we know who the OP is? They might be Russian. Remember when folk said the Russians caused Brexit by putting messages on social media? This could be more Russian propoganda trying to stoke division.

You never know who is behind these posts. Certainly makes you think when they include horrible images of women.

Scotland won’t be allowed back into the EU as an independent nation because it doesn’t meet the economic criteria. I think people are really deluded over this. She’ll lie and spin in to make everyone think we’ll just breeze into membership and we just won’t.

@Wherediditallgo you should see the SNP attempts to compare Scotland to Kosovo's self-determination battle!

Jesus Christ.....irrational, illogical and completely tone deaf! Of course the SNP will try to mislead and distort so we all need to be on guard here.

@DdraigGoch here you go, crack on. It was done by an Oxford Uni Geography academic:
amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

Am sure you can find his academic paper and get on with debunking his research

We had a bloody vote. Did you miss that?

i am a woman in Scotland utterly sick of the SNP

I didn't realise that Scotland had been the subject of a recent genocide campaign. 🙄 She is a muppet.

I think if there is a significant majority that want an independent Scotland, then I'm sure that will happen in time. But that does not seem the case now? Borders have been regularly redrawn over Europe, even in the recent past. That's what happens.

Living and working in Scotland for 20+years, working in the tech area I've seen a huge change in attitudes in work colleagues post-Brexit, especially younger and well educated. Personally I really don't care, have zero interest in things Scottish, and will be moving back "home" to England anyway in the next year or two.

I want Scottish independence. No chance of a vote next year were it to happen being a Yes vote. If you wait until the early part of the next decade when a generation will have past, I think there is a chance it could happen.

Your final point just backs up the benefit of independence. Governments will always gravitate towards the majority. England is the majority so Scotland will never get a fair deal (unless balances are built into the system). Rural Scotland has far more chance of bending the ear of a Scottish government than it does a UK one.

You realise that Blair relied upon his Scottish MPs for a number of crucial votes (including the imposition of tuition fees on English students)?

Neither England, nor Scotland are homogenous blocks. Glasgow has more in common with Liverpool than it does with the Western Isles. There isn't a "Scottish way" of dealing with a specific issue or an "English way". Labour looks to collect the votes of the inner cities while the Conservatives look to the shires -that applies on both sides of the border.

So you haven't got the actual paper, just an article that uses phrases such as "could in part be" which isn't exactly a strong endorsement of your claim. The text doesn't really back up the headline.

The article just seems to say that some border counties voted leave and that some Welsh-speaking counties voted remain. It completely neglects to mention that the border county of Monmouthshire (about as English as you can get in Wales) voted remain, while the strongly Welsh-speaking county of Carmarthenshire voted to leave.

Given that the author was an outspoken supporter of Jeremy Corbyn during the latter's time as Leader of the Labour Party and even appeared in a party political broadcast it isn't implausible that he may have had his own political motivations.

Here we go....

1. The size of a particular market isn't the full picture as the other important consideration is the extent of immersion in a given market.

Scotland does FOUR times more trade with the rest of the UK and is extremely heavily immersed within the British market.

The EU, on the other hand, is not as significant for Scotland and it isn't even heavily immersed in the EU market. In fact, England was far more involved in the EU market given its advantages including geography and population size.

2. Attempting to equate the EU Parliament with the UK Parliament is clearly False Equivalence. See, the EU Parliament is not a sovereign one.

The UK Parliament is directly comparable to the national Parliaments of Germany, France, Spain, Republic of Ireland, etc. And not one of those Parliaments would agree to secession within their own territories. So, the UK Parliament is just as democratic as those Parliaments are.

It might have escaped your attention, but the FPTP system IS a democratic system. You might prefer PR but that doesn't mean it's not democratic as a system at all.

NI has a different constitutional arrangement vis a vis the UK because of the Belfast Agreement, aka the Good Friday Agreement.