To think Scotland, (Wales and NI) has the right to self determination?

[Fragmentsof2022]

*MNHQ has deleted an image at the request of the OP"

So the Supreme Court voted yesterday to not allow Scotland Indy ref 2 without the permission of Westminster, ending the idea that Scotland (and wales, NI) are participants in a voluntary union.

International law states that:

“Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”

So, Aibu to think that Scotland (and Wales, Ni) has the right to decide it’s own future if it wants? And that includes the right to another referendum if it wants?

Interesting image doing the rounds on Twitter! I speak as an “Indy curious” Welsh person who had never considers Welsh independence until recently because we have always been told we were too poor, too small etc and I don’t nescessarily believe that anymore!

It’s really not this. We’re not four.

Tg for the Supreme Court providing a counter to some of these crazy posts.

They can't be railroaded into writing ok a piece of paper only they can see. And it obviously didn't railroad then the first time. What a load of nonsense.

It definitely is this

So, now you invoke law. Do you accept then that domestic AND international law clearly states there's no right to secession?

A simple yes or no will do.

It’s a very immature viewpoint, it’s kind of making me laugh. But no.

The vote was no because in the end we were promised we wouldn't be dragged out of the EU. David Cameron came up here with The Vow.

Really? 'Promised'? No politician has the authority or the power to promise to bind all future democratic decisions, if you interpret that as meaning that you would have been guaranteed to stay in the EU.

Nevertheless, you would indeed have been dragged out of the EU had you voted Indy. By voting to stay in the UK, you had the opportunity to stay in the EU - but a subsequent democratic referendum meant that the UK later decided to leave anyway. You have to enter a competition to have an opportunity of winning, but entering does not mean that you WILL win, guaranteed.

Just supposing that, following the Scottish vote to stay, 100% of people in England, Wales and NI had voted to leave the EU, along with 49% of people in Scotland - would that still have been unfair to make the other 51% of UK citizens living in Scots leave the EU as well? Should certain privileged people in the UK be issued with wildcards so that they get their democratic vote, but if it doesn't go their way, they can still overrule the majority anyway?

Of course they should have the right to self determination if they choose it. It’s ridiculous to say they shouldn’t. Yes, they chose to stay 10 years ago but the goalposts have shifted dramatically and the UK that Scottish people thought they were signing up for doesn’t exist anymore. Scottish people voted emphatically to remain in the EU but have been forced to withdraw against their will. It has had an awful impact on their economy and the many businesses that relied heavily on that market. They have the right to act in their own best interests, since England, Wales and NI is clearly not going to do it for them.

I think it would be very sad if Scotland voted for independence, and agree that it's too soon after IndyRef1.

However, as an English person I can still see why independence would appeal to a Scottish person. I would be furious about Brexit and having to put up with the Tories (neither of which I support).

I also think it's really hypocritical for Brexiteer MPs to be against Scottish independence tbh, as the arguments for both seem very similar to me. Personally I think both are disastrous, but how can you be pro one and not the other? I imagine if the EU had banned us from holding a referendum it would have gone down very badly with Brexit supporters!

You have already had a vote.

Really? 'Promised'? No politician has the authority or the power to promise to bind all future democratic decisions, if you interpret that as meaning that you would have been guaranteed to stay in the EU.

Well. Quite.
Which is the same for the once in the generation thing too.

See? Works both ways ;)

I can't stand more years of this garbage. The country is being torn in two. I'll tell you who'll be loving it though. Putin must be laughing his head off. Division, instability, the UK AND Scotland tearing themselves apart. Happy days.

Why do you not want us to vote again?

If the leave side were unable to expose lies during a referendum that had such an important outcome they clearly don't have much hope of running the country effectively, the more the leave side stamp their feet at loosing the more people who were on the fence will vote against them. I would like nothing more than a strong stable independent Scotland but none of the SNP seem able to deliver that, just spend all their time with criticism of westminster.tp divert attention from how badly they run their parliament

I think Putin is quite unwell and won't actually have a clue what's going on.

@olivehater

In 2014, many Scots voted against independence in order to stay in the EU

England then took Scotland out of the EU

A lot of people in Scotland remain very angry about that

I agree with the general premise that it's unreasonable for SNP to demand one referendum after another until they get the result they want. However, I do think that Brexit was a "game changer" and another referendum would have been justified / appropriate

But, now that we've seen what a disaster Brexit is, I wonder how many people would vote for Scottish independence now anyway

I know. Everything people said about Brexit will be multiplied hugely with this. Including his gain and anyone else who would like to see a weaker U.K. NS is riling people up for more division and self harm. It’s madness.

So you're against it because of a short term party rule. I voted for the future of the country not just for the short term.

I voted to remain in the EU and think Brexit has been very damaging to the UK . I think Scotland leaving the UK would also be very damaging to the UK, but far more damaging to Scotland.

Your point about Brexiteers not being happy if the EU had refused a referendum is moot really, because the scenario is very different but also, Scotland had a referendum and voted to remain in the UK.

You can't reason with someone who won't accept they were beaten, I've accepted it and can't understand why others cant

And actually i did go right off the idea of independence. I got fucked off when Nicola started talking about it again so soon after the Brexit vote. But when I see threads like this with posters in England telling us we should never get a vote ever, ever, ever again with some foot stomping to boot, I think "yep, let's goooooo".

The UK not England. This is just what amplifies the anti English rhetoric. Wales also voted to leave but that is conveniently forgotten...

I think it's pretty clear he is mentally unwell. It's actually concerning you don't.
Lala? Don't patronise me.

@FortSalem86 Yes, as you say, Brexit was a UK referendum. However, Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, and it was England (and Wales - my apologies) that took Scotland out of EU

Mind you would independence allow us English to get the free prescription etc that you get in Scotland? I do wish you luck dealing with the tax rises needed to cope with the lack of Westminster momey. I would be all for it especially if the North of England got more momey.