To think Scotland, (Wales and NI) has the right to self determination?

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*MNHQ has deleted an image at the request of the OP"

So the Supreme Court voted yesterday to not allow Scotland Indy ref 2 without the permission of Westminster, ending the idea that Scotland (and wales, NI) are participants in a voluntary union.

International law states that:

“Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”

So, Aibu to think that Scotland (and Wales, Ni) has the right to decide it’s own future if it wants? And that includes the right to another referendum if it wants?

Interesting image doing the rounds on Twitter! I speak as an “Indy curious” Welsh person who had never considers Welsh independence until recently because we have always been told we were too poor, too small etc and I don’t nescessarily believe that anymore!

Yes, they chose to stay 10 years ago but the goalposts have shifted dramatically and the UK that Scottish people thought they were signing up for doesn’t exist anymore.

Had they chosen to leave in 2014, would you still be in favour of allowing/demanding another referendum now to see if people wanted to rejoin the UK?

You make it sound like the Scottish people are helpless little children, with no agency or suffrage in their own right: just have to wait there patiently and in silence at the table to see what Mummy & Daddy England will hand to them.

None of us in the UK live now in the UK of 10 years ago - things change for everybody, whether any individual/group likes it or not: that's just how life and politics go.

If you're chiefly referring to Brexit - which was in fact a per capita referendum across the whole UK and not a constituency or region-based vote, as with the general elections - the majority of Londoners voted to remain. If there's any one powerful part of the UK that could have decided to stop the game and take their ball home when they were losing, it's surely London.

It seems that, to many, majorities don't really count if the majority happens to disagree with them; but if we're centring Scotland, why should both the 55% majority who voted pro-union AND the very sizeable 38% of Scottish voters (along with the majority of the rUK in a UK referendum) who voted pro-Brexit have their stated democratic preferences summarily dismissed, just because others stamp their feet and tell them that they have made the 'wrong' decisions?

You do seem bit out of touch if you think he, and others don’t have a vested interest in a weaker U.K. / West overall. Imo it’s bad news that Sturgeon is successfully hiding political failures behind hate and promises of utopia. It’s a strong combination that works but it won’t be for the better - but weaker and poorer.

The man is a grade A arse, definitely, but if you think Putin (or perhaps framing it as the Russian State would be better) aren't rubbing their hands in glee at this shit show I'm a bit gobsmacked. It's proven that Russian troll factories actively promoted disinformation and division during both the independence and brexit referendums.

Given the number of Russian incursions into UK airspace/waters off Scotland over the last few years, I'd like to know what an independent Scotland would do about it?

Wales is devolved and the running of it is a bloody shitshow. On almost every level services are worse than other parts if the UK as they mismanage money so badly.

When the (now cancelled) proposal to reduce tax was announced, Senedd mooted that people in Wales would still be charged the higher amount.
It has been proposed to charge people from other parts of the UK to stay / holiday in Wales, a tourist tax.
Enjoying Qatar Dripford, at our expense?

I'm not out of touch. I think there was actually proof he had been manipulating FB to sway the votes. Although that may have been Brexit too and one was true and one was debunked but I can't remember which way round it was.
There is thought that Putin has dementia.

Sturgeon - I'm not much of a fan. I do not agree with any of the GRC crap she has pushed. sno have failed on many issues.
But! Voting for them and eventually to independence is the only way we will get to vote for who we actually want. It's short term pain for long term gain imo

Cross posting!

It’s long term pain too sadly. I think that’s where the promises fall down. Poorer, more difficult, division and weaker U.K. in a globally tough landscape.

In your opinion

No, not just her opinion. Have you read the growth commission report? There would be decades of pain. If that's what the SNP's own report says just think how bad it would actually be. 🤔

No, England is correct. Due to the population of England every UK wide vote is determined by England and England alone. The other 3 home nations are completely irrelevant and would be as well just staying at home.

It only takes 20% of England's registered voters to cancel out 100% of Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish votes.

That's why the UK government, you know the one that's supposed to be for the benefit of the whole of the UK, focus only on England and why England alone get sole use of their full powers.

Hungrycaterpillarsmummy, during the first ref I went through the white paper and Wings little book with a fine toothed comb (don't think wings is as enamoured with the SNP as he once was!), weighed up pros and cons and voted accordingly, not just for me but for the next two generations. I thought the years of turmoil resulting from a vote for independence were far too big a price to pay for my kids and grandkids.

That doesn't make it invalid though.

Really? 'Promised'? No politician has the authority or the power to promise to bind all future democratic decisions, if you interpret that as meaning that you would have been guaranteed to stay in the EU.

Well. Quite.

Which is the same for the once in the generation thing too.

See? Works both ways ;)

Not really the same thing - nobody has proclaimed that there can never be another Indyref; just like nobody could proclaim that the UK would always stay in the UK.

Ok and that's fair enough. My issue on this thread isn't how people vote it's the fact others think they can say "no, you shouldn't get to vote on it again". It's utterly pathetic.

I would quite like to see honest information regarding costs etc. I think the emotion needs to be removed before any decision is made, for example how would Scotland fund their medical solution or a military? And the same information for Wales as well? People need to be able to make actual informed choice, but I would also like it to be that people in England are also told what the benefits of staying as a union are

People on this thread don't want us to ever vote again. "You've had your vote". Etc.

Funny how much thought is put on whether Scotland has a right to a Referendum when one was put in place to take us out of Europe with almost no thought at all.. but then, it was the English who wanted out so, who gives a hoot about what the other 3 countries wanted? (I’m being sarcastic BTW)

And if Scotland voted to leave just eight years ago, would you be demanding a referendum now to check the nation was still happy with the decision?

And if Scotland voted to leave just eight years ago, would you be demanding a referendum now to check the nation was still happy with the decision?

If material aspects of the union had changed, yes.

If something like Brexit had taken place, for instance.

Apologies if this had been pointed out already. The majority of people in Scotland did not vote for independence in 2014, but perhaps more interestingly the majority of people in Scotland did not vote for the SNP in the 2021 parliamentary election. I think they got around 45-46% of the vote. This was about the same % as they received in the referendum vote. Looking at the 2021 election results a credible argument is that the majority of people in Scotland do not wish independence.

No, England is correct. Due to the population of England every UK wide vote is determined by England and England alone. The other 3 home nations are completely irrelevant and would be as well just staying at home.

It only takes 20% of England's registered voters to cancel out 100% of Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish votes.

That's why the UK government, you know the one that's supposed to be for the benefit of the whole of the UK, focus only on England and why England alone get sole use of their full powers.

Not true at all. Of course the areas with a much higher population will have more of a say in democratic decisions - what alternative do you propose: that an individual in the UK only be given half or a quarter or a tenth of a vote that another individual in the UK gets, just because they happen to live in a highly-populated area?

You seem to see 'England' as one big homogenous blob. Do you really think that the Tories are in power because of the English in places like Liverpool, Sheffield and Brighton, to name just three? If 20% of the English are so powerful, than that means they can also cancel out 20% of the votes of other English people too - and they have never been offered their own referendum to leave the rest of England. If England voted 60/40 in favour of something in a UK-wide vote and all of Scotland, Wales and NI voted against, that would similarly mean that they could cancel out 60% of English votes - completely overrule the clear stated wishes of tens of millions of people. It's how democracy works. Of course, in reality, Scotland, Wales and NI are also made up of individuals and would thus be vanishingly unlikely to all vote the exact same way either, just like the English, but if we're being reductive about it and effectively seeing the UK as four voters....

Do you honestly believe that it's a peculiarly English thing to focus on the higher population areas when it comes to securing votes and political support? Is NS passionate about ensuring that the needs of the people in the Highlands and the Islands are met, just as much as those in the Central Belt? Are regular, reliable ferry services considered a top priority, even though Edinburgh and Glasgow don't need them?

You’re right we’re not all the same. London was mostly remain and has many red boroughs.

I don’t know why Brexit isn’t learned from, it’s the same emotional levers, same division and promise of utopia - but more of it and to greater extent.

What makes Scotland or Wales a country, but not Cornwall? What's the difference?

@Thebestwaytoscareatory so you are saying England drowns out Scottish opinion, wants and wishes?

Here’s my stumbling block;
Rejoining EU as an independent Scotland, how big a voice do you think Scotland would have against Germany, Spain, France…? We would be swamped. I suppose it would give those in charge of running Scotland another scapegoat for everything that does not go well.

on another level; urban Scotland and (I’m mainly talking central belt) completely dictates policy to rural Scotland.
in the past scotland was seen as a labour stronghold. Not in my area of the east coast, but due to Glasgow and central belt population the number of MPs dominated Scotland.

It’s just kicking the can down the road.

I don’t know why Brexit isn’t learned from, it’s the same emotional levers, same division and promise of utopia - but more of it and to greater extent.

Exactly. Nobody has ever yet convincingly (to me) explained why:

1. Scotland is so desperate to be subject to Brussels but not to Westminster;
2. Why wanting to become independent of the EU (as 38% of Scots voted for, and almost of half of English didn't, but England as a whole still gets blamed for it) is nasty, racist, divisive, bigoted, stupid etc. but wanting to become independent of the UK is freedom, positive, liberal, wise, fair etc.

I don't care on which side of the fence people fall - and I have full respect for the ignored people in Scotland who wanted independence from the EU and want independence from the UK or wanted to stay in the EU and want to stay in the UK; at least they're consistent - but how can both of the above views (in #2) possibly be sensibly justified? Is it a country equivalent of the MN threads where an OP has everybody's full sympathy until he mentions that he's a man, and then he's automatically in the wrong and declared UBP (unreasonable-by-penis)?