To think Scotland, (Wales and NI) has the right to self determination?

[Fragmentsof2022]

*MNHQ has deleted an image at the request of the OP"

So the Supreme Court voted yesterday to not allow Scotland Indy ref 2 without the permission of Westminster, ending the idea that Scotland (and wales, NI) are participants in a voluntary union.

International law states that:

“Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”

So, Aibu to think that Scotland (and Wales, Ni) has the right to decide it’s own future if it wants? And that includes the right to another referendum if it wants?

Interesting image doing the rounds on Twitter! I speak as an “Indy curious” Welsh person who had never considers Welsh independence until recently because we have always been told we were too poor, too small etc and I don’t nescessarily believe that anymore!

The unionist parties are polar opposites from each other. A labour voter is not likely to vote conservative to keep the SNP out and vice versa. As a result unionist votes are diluted
There is only one pro-independence party which takes all of their votes.

I’m utterly sick of all the hatred being stirred up in a country which is falling apart. It will be interesting to see where that hatred is directed once the “Toaries” are voted out of Westminster and can no longer be blamed.
The SNP is a party of protest but when it comes to running the country they are a disaster.

England has the vote already. It was England that voted for brexit. It's England that votes in these Tory loons.

It was also Wales, if we're only counting majorities in each home nation; but it was a UK-wide referendum, with one vote per adult in the UK, so it's irrelevant where they happen to live.

Also, although there are parallels in that both involve(d) a question of whether people wish(ed) to leave a larger political union with law-making powers, they're actually two entirely separate referendums. That said, I firmly believe that, had the Brexit vote gone in favour of remain, that would have been that, and there would have been no serious demands for a near-instant re-run (and another and another) until the 'right' result was achieved.

I genuinely can't believe that I'm defending the highly unpleasant David Cameron here, but although he made it clear that he personally was in favour of remain, he democratically accepted the will of the majority and didn't stamp his feet and demand they vote again - but this time the 'right' way.

I think certain Scots seem to think it's some kind of evil conspiracy that people in England got far more votes than people in Scotland in the referendum. No, it was one per person (over 18). What's the alternative: should every Scot have been given 10 votes to each 1 per English person? Would that have been fair? That way, effectively, only 380% of Scottish people would have voted for Brexit, whilst a mighty 620% voted to remain! Presumably, each person in Wales would also - under that brand of Orwellian 'fairness' - have received 20 or so votes, so how would that have affected things?

Sharing is condoning it.

@Fragmentsof2022 Can you please report your OP and get that horrible picture removed?

Agree absolutely with this. To change the status quo should require more than 50% of the vote. Maybe 50% of the eligible vote or 66% of actual vote. So then, it can definitely be said that change is wanted by the majority.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll although if we look at the Welsh government, it’s never ever voted tory as a majority.

I’d vote yes, as I did at the last referendum and I’d keep voting yes.

Yup, you clearly know the law better than the Supreme Court judges. Go you. 🙄

They had a referendum, they voted to stay as part of the UK.

There was a referendum to determine whether we wanted to be part of the EU. We voted against.

Both were touted as once only.

Why can Scotland have another vote because they didn't like the result of the first but not the UK on staying in the EU? 🤔

Double standards I think

I can't see the EU welcoming Scotland or the rest into the EU as independent countries otherwise that would cause problems with places like Catalonia.

@IamThegreaterMole i will get the picture removed as I didn’t mean it to cause so much offence

@mumsnet - can you remove the picture from my post?

Scotland already had a vote to decide its own future, why are you trying to overturn that democratic process that already happened?

What would make a new vote more democratic than the previous one?

I've found that when people pose the ops question, they only mean 'self determination as long as its the answer we want' which is clear as they're not accepting the original vote.
If it was a yes @Fragmentsof2022 would you allow for another vote the year after, or would that be final?

Wales voted for Brexit though?

The ruling was very considered and unanimous amongst the judges. I heard some of it and it was good to know the legal case.

Those places you mentioned aren't countries. They are in England.

I just wish that the English were allowed to vote on whether they want to stay in a Union with Scotland. Union is supposed to be a joining of two partners, but one side is not allowed a divorce , or even asked whether they would favour one.

One person, one vote doesn’t apply in questions of Union, I guess.

@MichelleScarn i already said I think there needs to be a better process than a referendum- I don’t know what that is.

The point ultimately is that Scotland has cited the SNP into nearly every parliamentary seat in Scotland knowing that they are a nationalist party who wants independence. That’s what the SNP are basing all of this on.

If, in the next election, they stand on a single issue and get voted out in every seat then there’s your answer. If they get voted in again unanimously then there is your answer too.

Catalonia don't have an issue with Scotland at all.

We had a referendum just a short while ago. Scotland voted to remain part of the UK. We did have self determination. Just because it didn't go the way you would like doesn't mean Scotland didn't decide.

The SNP immediately called for another referendum. What do you think would happen if they had a right to call a referendum whenever they choose? They would call one again and again and again and it would be extremely destabilising to Scotland and the UK. Not to mention the cost and the focus being away from more important things like education, the NHS etc.

The Supreme Court decision was absolutely correct.

@Freysimo yea and loads of research done since points to that vote in Wales being swayed by English retirees

Thank you

So the Supreme Court voted yesterday to not allow Scotland Indy ref 2 without the permission of Westminster, ending the idea that Scotland (and wales, NI) are participants in a voluntary union.

How does that change anything? NI would need Westminster to call a border poll too.

Which they will.
I think Scotland have made it clear where they stand.
Brexit pissed them off big time.
Scotlands votes count for nothing down South.

We have a first past the post voting system.

That doesn't mean the majority party got more than 50% of the votes, it just means they got more than anyone else.

If there were only two parties yes but where there are three or more it's highly likely they got less than 50%