To think Scotland, (Wales and NI) has the right to self determination?

[Fragmentsof2022]

*MNHQ has deleted an image at the request of the OP"

So the Supreme Court voted yesterday to not allow Scotland Indy ref 2 without the permission of Westminster, ending the idea that Scotland (and wales, NI) are participants in a voluntary union.

International law states that:

“Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”

So, Aibu to think that Scotland (and Wales, Ni) has the right to decide it’s own future if it wants? And that includes the right to another referendum if it wants?

Interesting image doing the rounds on Twitter! I speak as an “Indy curious” Welsh person who had never considers Welsh independence until recently because we have always been told we were too poor, too small etc and I don’t nescessarily believe that anymore!

beavonsfield isn’t a country- Scotland, wales and Ireland are countries!

How far do we go back? Cornwall was historically a country in its own right. What about the Kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia and all the rest?

The people of Scotland had the special privilege in 2014 that nobody else in the UK has been given in recent times to vote on whether they wanted to leave the UK and they voted that they did not want to leave. Yes, it wasn't by the widest of margins, but nobody will ever convince me that NS wouldn't have seized it as a decisive victory had it tipped the other way by the same margin.

As has already been said, this new ruling also removes any right for the other three home nations to a binding vote for independence. Just imagine that England said "We've had enough of all the squabbling" and voted to leave the UK - how would that play out? Doubtless, we'd be called nasty bigoted racists for even hinting at merely wanting the exact same opportunity as Scotland has already had.

You missed my point entirely. Spain would though.

That's because people are blinded by independence. They do not care about their poor track record or the rest of their policies. Plus you have the other pro-independence parties telling their supporters to vote SNP first.

The pro-unionist parties have a larger vote share. If we could magically make everyone just vote for one party at the next election instead of Labour/Tory/Lib Dem/Independent......but most voters care about more than a single issue

They have had their vote. They voted to remain. Thats it. You don't get to continually hold referendums because you didn't like the result.

@Fragmentsof2022 Sorry, but you ARE distorting what international law actually says about self-determination and secession in your OP.

Your words below:

"International law states that:

“Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.

Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”

My question to you is why on earth did you leave out the following?!

"In a UN context, the right to self-determination in its external shape is applicable to people (not to national, ethnic, and religious minorities, whose rights are recognized in Article 27 of the ICCPR, 1966) or to the nations in the cases of: a) a colonial context; or b) in a situation of any foreign domination or occupation."

"Today, it may be concluded that international law bestows on all peoples the right to self-determination, but that the right to external self-determination, exercised through remedial secession, only applies in extreme circumstances, to colonized and severely persecuted peoples."

International law actually says that regions of unitary sovereign states like Scotland and Catalonia are NOT entitled to independent secession since they are NOT:

1. Colonies

2. Oppressed by their respective sovereign parent state

Now, because you were highly selective on international law the poll is moving well away from suggesting you are not unreasonable and is very much saying you are unreasonable.

Yes, they should have the right to choose to be independent. But it would be very destabilising to have frequent referenda. The SNP themselves described the referendum as once in a lifetime. This isn't even another generation away. It's far too soon.

Scottish votes have been deciding (ie changed the outcome for the whole UK) in 25% of elections since WW2. In spite of them being only 8% of the electorate. They are a long way from being an oppressed minority!

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll well, at the moment Wales has a team in the World Cup with an anthem sung in its own language- if we are being picky, that is a good starting point for being a country in its own right at this moment in time. Not denying Cornwall tho- the Cornish language is very similar to Welsh as it goes.

@Freysimo yea and loads of research done since points to that vote in Wales being swayed by English retirees

Clutching at straws much!!! Loads of English also swayed by social media etc. They made their vote same as everyone else.

I would like to get to vote on getting rid of the Barnett formula. But as an English person I dot get the option funnily enough!

@DownNative i didn’t deliberately leave that bit out as it goes. I just copied an initial part to start the conversation. The colony bit is interesting as it was being debated a lot in Welsh Twitter yesterday about whether or not Wales is a colony and is oppressed with many saying yes.

Beaconsfield was obviously a joke to make the point.
However Cornwall does have it's own independence movement and was an ancient kingdom. So do you think they should also get a vote?

@olivehater no, actual research

amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

lots of people were swayed. They still made their vote.

Or how about Northumbria?

@Grumpyoldpersonwithcats as I said above, the Cornish language is very similar to Welsh and yes, there is a big Yes Cornwall movement aligned to the Yes Cymru movement I belong to.

As someone has said earlier rightly though, if Westminster wasn’t so awful and the tories weren’t so self serving and awful then maybe these movements wouldn’t exist. The lack of respect for Wales is so appalling by the tories and they would abolish the language in the blink of an eye if they could

It is ridiculous to ask for an independence vote because you don't like who is currently in power in Westminster. By the next election it will probably not be the Tories in power.

SNP getting voted in in Scotland is not the same as Scotland wanting independence. Of course there will be a lot of overlap, but it isn't the same. What % share of the vote did SNP get in the last election? (genuine question).

NS's modus operandi seems to be 'be different from Westminster' whether or not it makes sense. Women & girls won't have any protections if she carries on.

Fragmentsof2022, so you're blaming English people for the Welsh majority for leaving the EU ( and that Guardian article uses the phrase 'could be attributed ', 'could' not 'is'.)

How about it 'could' be attributed to the 29% of people in Wales registered to vote who didn't care enough to actually get out and use their vote?

Completely disingenuous and you're totally on the backfoot considering you've been shown to be highly selective as well as attempting to be emotionally manipulative here.

If, as you now claim, you wanted to "start the conversation"....why didn't you once present two views in your OP?

That would be the beginning of actual conversation.

Instead you posted a highly selective passage about self-determination which makes it sound like Scotland et al are entitled to secession under international law.

Yet never once posted the actual position of international law in that Scotland et al are only entitled to devolution which is the limit of self-determination.

Twitter?!

With all due respect, Twitter is a cesspool and many people completely misunderstand international law and politics. Its ridiculous to base anything on that!

Wales like Scotland, Northern Ireland and Catalonia has limited self-government. It can make its own decisions within the limits of their constitutional powers and no further.

This isn't what oppression looks like at all! Ukraine is currently an example of oppression and Hong Kong is to with Taiwan a potential example should China press further.

Claiming Wales is oppressed is as ridiculous as claiming Northern Ireland is oppressed. The international community says they are NOT.

Hopefully NI will eventually (soon) be returned to Ireland. And hopefully - those conversations already being had in Ireland- the unionist community there will have proper representation in Ireland rather than be subsumed into the Irish political system as just another bunch of counties.

@DownNative many of the major political voices and academics in wales writing about this topic are active on Twitter- what’s wrong with that? Yes it’s a cesspool but it’s also a source of community.

martinjohnes.com/wales-englands-colony/

Also, the debate around wales being a colony isn’t a new one at all!

i haven’t been emotionally manipulative or disingenuous at all- I have apologised for the picture as granted it wasn’t the best to share but I have also made my points and arguments throughout the post.

@bellinisurge excuse me...."returned to Ireland"?!

The GFA is very clear that only the people of Northern Ireland can decide its constitutional future which means we don't belong to the Republic of Ireland.

Your comment suggests we do.

A majority in the ROI aren't in favour of "proper representation". They're in favour of subsuming Northern Ireland as another set of counties which is contrary to the GFA which has no sunset clause on devolution of power to Stormont. Varadkar was booed recently for saying Northern Ireland would continue to exist as a devolved administration.

Given the amount of hatred coming out out of Scotland, Wales an Ireland towards the English, I vote yes, you can all have your independence as long as you don't expect us to pay for it 😉😉

@Georgeskitchen its not hatred of people at all. It’s hatred of a political system that isn’t working for those countries. Wales also has just had an English Prince foisted upon us with no one asking if we wanted him - just ‘bestowed’ upon the poor Welsh.

Felt exactly the same on seeing that. Why is a supreme court decision being portrayed as violent misogyny? It's legal interpretation of the constitution. There's nothing violent, abusive or misogynistic about it.

@emmylousings yes and I have acknowledged that it was the wrong image to share and asked mumsnet to remove it

Did you report it? Not sure tagging works