To think Scotland, (Wales and NI) has the right to self determination?

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*MNHQ has deleted an image at the request of the OP"

So the Supreme Court voted yesterday to not allow Scotland Indy ref 2 without the permission of Westminster, ending the idea that Scotland (and wales, NI) are participants in a voluntary union.

International law states that:

“Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”Self-determination denotes the legal right of people to decide their own destiny in the international order.
Self-determination is a core principle of international law, arising from customary international law, but also recognized as a general principle of law, and enshrined in a number of international treaties.
For instance, self-determination is protected in the United Nations Charter and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a right of “all peoples.”

So, Aibu to think that Scotland (and Wales, Ni) has the right to decide it’s own future if it wants? And that includes the right to another referendum if it wants?

Interesting image doing the rounds on Twitter! I speak as an “Indy curious” Welsh person who had never considers Welsh independence until recently because we have always been told we were too poor, too small etc and I don’t nescessarily believe that anymore!

excuse me...."returned to Ireland"?!

But this is the narrative of doublethink, just like is being used for Scottish independence - "as a democratic country, we must be allowed to do the 'RIGHT' thing, even if the majority of the people have shown that they don't actually want that".

@MarshaBradyo yes have done that too. Genuinely didn’t mean to cause offense with it!

If Scotland don't have the right to an independence vote they're not an independent country. Simple as that really. Imagine if the EU had denied us Brexit! Must be a bit demoralising as a Scottish person. I can imagine the Supreme Court ruling will actually help the independence cause.

@MaryMcCarthy i think it already has. And yes, the Brexit analogy is exactly right. The brexiteers went on and on about sovereignty while now denying that to others. Imagine if some of the commonwealth countries now wanting to leave were denied that too

Hello from Dublin.

It won’t.

NI leaving the UK is one unlikely thing, Ireland voting to unify is another.

Why would Ireland take on the economic, social, and political shitshow that is NI?

For people who are anti snp the best way to get rid of them is to vote for independence!

Your legal thinking is muddled. The pp is explaining this well.

The comparison to Brexit is only useful in that it’s the same division, feelings over facts, riling people up, promises of utopia - with a poorer and difficult reality. A weakening for all of us that international threats would welcome.

The vote was no because in the end we were promised we wouldn't be dragged out of the EU. David Cameron came up here with The Vow.
It may as well have been shredded as it was printed

You can't have a referendum on something and then continue to call for another when it didn't go your way. The people have already spoken

Talk about chucking the baby out with the bathwater

So the Scottish Indy Ref happened when we were in the EU with free movement of persons etc. Lot of the No campaign was based on the benefits of staying in the UK and that there was no guarantee of getting into the EU as an independent country.

I feel like Brexit plus England constantly voting in the Tories might just about count as a change of circumstances after Indyref 1...

I'd prefer to be part of the EU, have free movement of persons, unless England changes a lot soon leaving the UK might be the most likely way for that to happen.

That said a delay to after the next general election would not be a bad thing - if England votes Tory again then it becomes a clear cut leave the UK situation, if labour get in and seem to be doing a decent job, the UK has a chance.

Sometimes I think neither the UK or the ROI want it!

Blame the Scots and James IV (I) for that!

Just stick with the Tories forever then. The voters have already spoken.

See how ridiculous you sound?

General elections aren't once in a generation as the independence referendum was meant to be.

But governments are always going to come and go.
You won’t be able to pop back in and out of independence depending on how Westminster are doing. You’ve got to look at how well SNP are doing with the responsibility they do have now and ask if you would be happy with them to take over everything. Do they exercise due diligence? Are they good stewards of the public purse? Are they fully open and accountable?

Wales also has just had an English Prince foisted upon us with no one asking if we wanted him - just ‘bestowed’ upon the poor Welsh.

The whole UK has just had a new king foisted on us, with nobody asking if we wanted him or not. We have a constitutional monarchy going back centuries and we've never had a vote to say whether or not we want to keep it.

They also give themselves numerous other titles associated with parts of the UK with which they have no actual specific link.

I get that many people are very unhappy indeed with how the country is run - and of course everybody is deeply disappointed when their political views get overruled time and time again. I live in a Tory safe seat, so my vote is effectively meaningless - but then, under the current system that we have (whether we like it or not), the majority do have their free say, so that is democracy.

Vast, vast swathes of the north of England are staunch Labour and many hate what years of Tory rule have done to their communities - but they don't get a chance to opt out.

By the way some people in Scotland and Wales (and, to a lesser extent, NI) talk, you would think that we in England all have exactly the political setup that we dream of (we all share one single dream, of course - we aren't really 50+ million different people) and, furthermore, part of that collective dream is that we have all deliberately put in measures to subjugate the other three Home Nations and make them suffer. Every single thing that is bad in the world is 100% because of the English - and if only you can escape their clutches, Utopia is right there on the horizon.

No she doesn’t sound ridiculous. The two are different

@randomsabreuse yes absolutely -a huge amount has changed since 2014 and Scotland voted to remain!

Democracy isn’t a one off event!

We know when we have an election how long the winning side will be in power and have to live with the results. We were also told this was a once in a generation referendum. Im no Tory, I voted leave but have had to accept that I was outvoted by those who wanted to stay. What is ridiculous is not accepting a vote that didn't go your way.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll yes you do make some good points that I agree with too

Its funny when people repeat this because just because someone said it, doesn't mean it's law and has to stay that way. "Meant to be". Who cares? zzzzz things changed. Give us another vote and see. If you think we don't want to leave then why not give us a vote to confirm this? Or you want to keep a population of a country in a union they don't want to be. Are you a dictator at heart?

And the polls show that none of these things are important enough in Scotland to engender any kind of swing towards independence.

Because A LOT of lies were told to us that have now come to fruition

Even Sturgeon said that. 🙄

I notice a lot of Scots who don't want to leave feeling rail roaded by those who do. Not very democratic.

Basically people don't want other countries to have a choice because they aren't getting a choice. It's some kind of weird jealousy thing going on.
If I was in England and all the countries around me were talking about breaking away I'd say crack on.. have your votes whenever you like.