Are all "naughty" children actually neurodivergent?

[Ponderingthemeaningoflife]

As the subject asks. The children in my life (friends, family, DC school peers, colleagues' children) fall into two camps - the ones who can be stubborn at home, but tend to behave fabulously for anyone who isn't their parents including at school.

And those who are challenging in many settings, don't like to conform, oppositional. So many of these are being referred for ADHD/Autism after a year or two at school, mine included.

Does anyone have any actual experience of "naughty" children (by naughty I mean doesn't do what they're asked, refusal to comply, cheeky, rude, attitude) who did eventually grow out of it?

Millions everywhere 🙄

You realise it's a spectrum right?
My child has severe autism and learning disabilities, he has no concept of 'naughty behaviour " his behaviour is often very challenging but that is due to his disabilities.

Yup! My totally NT 3yr old is an absolute menace. We're working very hard on it and I'm so hopeful that she grows out of it, but she definitely displays a lot of "naughty" behaviour!

If children are given a diagnosis of autism and or Adhd ,it's a diagnosis not a label ,they won't get a diagnosis unless they actually have the condition.

Yes I’ve noticed this child can’t just be naughty these days it seems

Yes but contrary to popular belief not everyone is "on the spectrum." The OP is asking whether there are children who are just plain "naughty" without having autism or other disabilities.

Well I can flip that and say that my neurodivergent children are not naughty.

They never behaved badly when at school.

Of course there are just naughty children. Plenty of parents don't know how to parent, they create naughty children, some kids are just being a pain in the ass some days. They don't all have adhd or autism, sometimes it is just naughtiness. They grow out of it. A couple of my cousin's were just naughty, they grew out of it.

My kids are neurotypical- angelic school reports, gobby as anything at home.

I strongly suspect I’m neurodivergent but I was never naughty at school.

There are Many factors in this
my child seems neurotypical and pushes boundaries Anna’s can be cheeky rude refuse to do as asked etc

we bring her back in line and all is good
we are teaching her hire to behave, be socially competent and polite but it’s not necessarily what comes naturally to everyone

this is the parents’ job

Sorry my poll doesn't make sense! I think being U would be that I'm wrong, there are still "naughty" children who are NT, and YANBU is yes, there is always something underlying.

@x2boys I realise very much, yes. My DS has been referred for both autism and ADHD and he reached all of his developmental milestones, and is currently doing ok academically. He has however always been a very oppositional child, in several settings (excluding private nursery where he rubbed along relatively well) which is why we are exploring whether there is an underlying reason; whether he isn't just "naughty, stubborn, defiant, rude".

In my many years experience of working in education, the vast majority of children with behavioural issues either have SEND (diagnosed or not) or have experienced early childhood trauma. Sometimes both.

The kids who are just being a bit ‘naughty’ usually grow up eventually and respond to consequences.

So what your saying is the term neuro divergent being applied to children when really they just discipline or boundaries.

If your child is being referred for adhd or autism the process of assessment is rigorous and a diagnosis won't be made unless the behaviour exists in more than one setting for a prolonged period of time.

Lots of children who were ND were labelled as naughty because they couldn't conform.

Some children behave badly because they haven't been taught better.

Some children behave badly because at some level it works for them- attention needing behaviour for example, for the child who would otherwise be ignored.

There are always reasons for a child's behaviour- sometimes reasons that can be addressed and the behaviour changed, other times it's the environment that needs to change.

Yes there are naughty children. There are also

There are also a lot of children whose parents are keen to label any type of behaviour they don’t like or understand as a ‘thing’. So they won’t have a diagnosis and in a lot of cases not even attempt to get one - but will excuse their kid’s poor behaviour or quirky behaviour as a disorder.

@wingingit33 perfect example of what I'm referring to. The majority of children will let loose with their parents, but know the social norms of behaving in a classroom, have the correct amount of understanding that they need to do what the teacher asks.

I’ve also noticed that people say autistic children can’t be naughty and I say that as someone with an autistic child myself, there is a boy in my sons class who has asd who throws chairs around the class, throws books at children, threatens them, swears at the teacher, but apparently you can’t be autistic and naughty and he’s only doing it cos he is autistic.

My experience is that my autistic child doesn’t respond well to the types of discipline and solutions that would work with NT children

With autistic and ND kids it can often be you’re doing everything ‘correctly’ and what worked with your other children but it isn’t helping.

I see it a lot on threads here where somebody with an autistic child posts and you get lots of well-meaning parents of NT kids posting obvious advice of techniques that just aren’t helpful for many autistic children

It has been a huge learning curve for me to work out my DCs triggers and what actually works for them

Interestingly, we used to have a ‘behaviour support’ team in our LEA who schools would call in for support with particular challenges. There also used to be BESD special schools (behavioural/emotional/social difficulties). The current SEND Code of practice however refers to SEMH instead.

The behaviour support’ team was rebranded the ‘SEMH’ team in 2015 and then they were disbanded completely 2 years ago and all made redundant, so there is nobody to call in for support any more anyway!

But OP isn't asking about your particular case. Not everyone is on the spectrum depsite popular belief. It seems absolutely every child on MN is on the spectrum. Those on the spectrum are actually the minority of the population.

Not all neurodivergent children display ‘naughty’ or challenging behaviour.

Not all children who do show difficult behaviours are ND. Children can act out for a whole range of reasons; from things as simple as having a tough day or being hungry or other unmet needs through to complex issues such as trauma, parenting and other influences and life experiences. Some children just have a personality that leads to them not conforming and therefore deemed as trouble makers at school but go on to be successful entrepreneurs as adults.

Whether NT or ND behaviour is communication.

You don't just rock up at CAMHS and say "hey my kid is naughty, gimme a diagnosis for them so I can absolve myself of any need to parent".

There is a referral process, a pre-assessment process, an assessment process, and then a post-assessment process. Each stage has gatekeeping procedures in place and it can take years and multiple referrals before a diagnosis is made. A child is much more likely to go undiagnosed than actually be diagnosed.

The ignorance on this thread is astounding.

Absolutely this!

My son has a fantastic group of friends. They are all 18/19 year old lads who are the nicest, loyal lads you could meet. Several of them were labelled as disruptive/naughty etc at school. Half of them (including ds) turned out to be neuro-diverse. Others came from a difficult background but were fortunate to have found someone who believed in them who were able to be a good role model.

There are others at his college who did not have that role model and they seem to be spiralling downhill.