Are all "naughty" children actually neurodivergent?

[Ponderingthemeaningoflife]

As the subject asks. The children in my life (friends, family, DC school peers, colleagues' children) fall into two camps - the ones who can be stubborn at home, but tend to behave fabulously for anyone who isn't their parents including at school.

And those who are challenging in many settings, don't like to conform, oppositional. So many of these are being referred for ADHD/Autism after a year or two at school, mine included.

Does anyone have any actual experience of "naughty" children (by naughty I mean doesn't do what they're asked, refusal to comply, cheeky, rude, attitude) who did eventually grow out of it?

Are you the same poster who came on a thread on the neurodiversity mumsnetters board to talk about how autistic people don't have it that bad actually and ended up swearing at everyone?

An autistic person masking is not the same as a neurotypical person acting a little but more polite for a while.

A place in a special school costs between £30k and £60kpa.

Obviously in a perfect world there'd be a place for everyone who needs one, but if we're really talking 1 in 5 children, who's paying for that? How high are you prepared to see taxes go?

@rainbowmilk speaking from bitter experience, if a child is removed from school then the LA will wash its hands of said child. I have a job and other caring responsibilities that mean home school is totally impossible for us.

I really don’t like the thinking behind these “out of sight, out of mind” comments. No child should be harmed at school, but ND people are not going anywhere. They are most likely to learn to manage any traits of their autism that are troublesome if they are included and allowed to participate in normal communities, in just the same way as ND children learn to rub along and lose their rough edges.

And yes, the LA/school/whatever should be making that happen. Blaming the child will increase their distress and anxiety. These are disabled children, FGS.

And how do you suggest the parent pays their bills if they have to give up work to home educate? Children with SEN are entitled to an education at school, the issue is support is not adequate in a lot of cases and that is no fault of the child or parents. Alternative provision may take years to be available if at all.

I've got autistic children who have no concept of how to be naughty 🤷‍♀️it's just who they are.
I was an absolute brat growing up but I've mostly grown out of it,I'm still cheeky but in a funny way and always nicely push boundaries but I'm socially normal for a better word!
So yes I was a kid who just was naughty 🤣

@crwnhgow I don't know if that was directed at me, but if it was I don't think anywhere on this thread have I suggested that autistic people don't have it bad. If you read my comments you'll see that I've explained that my DS has been referred for an assessment, and that it was me, not his school initially (although thankfully the helpful Senco agrees with me) that there might be an underlying reason for his "naughty" behaviour. I've also made it clear that I don't think all ND children are naughty.

In my experience it looks to people outside the situation that ND (and indeed a lot of NT) children act worse for their parents. In reality I'd say they feel safest with their parents and spend a lot of the day in school or childcare masking rather than behaving the problem with that is it has to come out somewhere. There's an often used analogy in Sen education of a shaken pop bottle which finally explodes when the lid is taken off. I this case the kids being taken off is when the child finally gets somewhere they can relax.

Yep, my autistic DD has always been impeccably behaved, and her teachers and school reports corroborate this.

Conversely, there are lots of NT kids in her class who are little horrors.

"A place in a special school costs between £30k and £60kpa."

It's a minimum of £60k at ds's school. Ds's place is probably about £150k with transport. There is not enough suitable maintained special provision ( no Asd special schools) so the LA are being forced to use independent specialist schools.

It is on the parent of a violent child to make alternative provision. I’m not lacking in sympathy, it’s very sad, but the status quo of children (some of whom will also be disabled) being exposed to, or actually subjected to, physical violence at school is totally unacceptable and the shrugging justifications for this, much less insistence that the victims be kind, are abhorrent to me.

I’m not going to be responding further as it’s quite clear that nobody is going to change their view on this as it’d involve not putting their child first.

We have four naughty children in our class. The most difficult has attachment disorder (and a lot of resulting behaviours) from being in care, one is definitely on the spectrum, one has been abused and cannot form relationships or self-soothe without tantrums, and the fourth is just a jerk raised by other jerks. So for the most part, yes.

There's an often used analogy in Sen education of a shaken pop bottle which finally explodes when the lid is taken off. I this case the kids being taken off is when the child finally gets somewhere they can relax

Absolutely true of DS. Not just different environments, but different people. Both my DM and my DH can take DS to a restaurant and he behaves impeccably. I’m his “safe space” so he lets all his autistic bits go wild when we’re alone, meaning that I’m more limited in what I can do alone with him.

DS was diagnosed age 3 at the Lorna Wing centre, and is followed up there every year. All completely normal for an autistic kiddo.

It is on the parent of a violent child to make alternative provision

There.
Is.
No.
Provision.

All children are entitled to a school place ,my son is in a special school as his needs are very complex and cam be met in the LEA,s special school unfortunately is not a one size fits all and my sons school cares primarily for children with severe learning disabilities and autism ,there are special schools that cater for children who don't have additional learning disabilities, but they xost ££££££,s and LEA ,s are often reluctant to pay for then however it is the LEA,s responsibility to fund suitable education in or out of Borough.

"It is on the parent of a violent child to make alternative provision."

The LA has a duty to provide a suitable full time education. That is the law that overrides any opinions.

Apologies, I'm still getting used to the new quoting system. I was responding to @missbunnyrabbit's post at 13:02 minimizing the difficulty autistic people have with masking.

Great, and if there's no alternative provision available?

Yes what alternative provision??

what exactly are parents supposed to do?

Some children are dealing with a lot at home and can act out. They can be neglected, bullied and sometimes left playing fortnite for hours on end.
I've also seen very bright children bored at school who end up being labelled naughty because they're quite independent in their thinking and don't want to do things that they see no point in doing, from their point of view.

Gobsmacked someone is saying it is on the parents if there is no funding or school places their child desperately needs

wtf

There is no provision.

I’m a leader in education.

Children with SEMH (what used to be referred to as behavioural issues) but no severe developmental / cognitive issues can’t get a place in special schools (and these are like hen’s teeth anyway).

Without an EHCP they end up in Pupil Referral Units.

With an EHCP, and a LOT of fight (often at the expense of their parents’ livelihoods, mental health, other children) get a place at a privately run specialist school, the vast majority of which in my experience are not fit for purpose when you dig beyond their shiny brochures. They are also almost all profiteering outfits, taking huge amounts of local authority money to invest in property and various markets.

Pleaee don’t blame parents and carers for the failings of successive governments to get education for children with SEND or SEMH right.

That should have read

With an EHCP, and a LOT of fight (often at the expense of their parents’ livelihoods, mental health, other children) they MIGHT (very unlikely) get a place

Children are now expected to behave like little robots, it makes life easier for teachers and parents but crushes the spirit out of them. Everything these days is so organised including leisure time, we used to come home from school and play out over the fields unsupervised for hours,to let off steam after being couped up all day. l remember a teacher saying my youngest has no fear of authority, after she told him to stop running around in the playground when he was approx 8 years old and he didn' t.
Smug parents who have children with complient temperants think its all down to their way of parenting, until they go on to have another child who isn 't so eager to please and they have to resort to using other stratergies. Temperant is key, if you have an assertive child who isn't a natural people pleaser as a parent you will have your work cut out, but these are usually the children who become very succesful as adults further on down the line.

My friend has 2 children who she and her husband don’t discipline. The eldest is in year 3 at school now and starting to behave much better. The youngest is going into year 1 and is still a challenge. They’re waiting for school to teach them how to behave.