Are all "naughty" children actually neurodivergent?

[Ponderingthemeaningoflife]

As the subject asks. The children in my life (friends, family, DC school peers, colleagues' children) fall into two camps - the ones who can be stubborn at home, but tend to behave fabulously for anyone who isn't their parents including at school.

And those who are challenging in many settings, don't like to conform, oppositional. So many of these are being referred for ADHD/Autism after a year or two at school, mine included.

Does anyone have any actual experience of "naughty" children (by naughty I mean doesn't do what they're asked, refusal to comply, cheeky, rude, attitude) who did eventually grow out of it?

I think more people are neurodivergent than we think.

I agree.

I don’t think anyone is actually ‘normal’ but many of us play the role of what is expected because that’s what we’ve been taught and what our parents were taught.

But I can guarantee that we all have little quirks that are associated with some form of SEND.

This this this. I am a teacher and our Senco says "No child is ever naughty" and it is absolute rubbish.
For me, the distinction is whether the child knows what they're doing is wrong. If they have been asked to not hit other children, and they are both of normal intelligence and can understand instructions, then to continue hitting other children is pure naughtiness. It doesn't matter to me whether they have SEN or not. If your judgement of a child is that they DO understand that what they are doing in wrong, yet continue to do it anyway, that is disobedience and naughtiness.

That's amazing @CallOnMe. We haven't had a great experience with my DS' school journey so far. The nursery teachers seemed most effective, but that year was 2019-20 so cut short. His reception teacher didn't communicate much to me, and his Year One teacher also didn't, but punished him a lot in class (I only found out from him, it was very much glossed over at parents' evenings. He's never violent so I've never been pulled aside at the end of the day). I've been the one to raise possible underlying needs, the teachers so far have been happy to label him as naughty. The Senco is more helpful, thankfully.

All neurotypical children are also naughty.

Remember Matilda's song?

It's insane to expect children to not be naughty.

I'm not saying my ND child was/is never naughty but he has always been generally well behaved. The short lived "phase" at school was due to another child leading him on - not just my biased opinion, but what we were told by his teachers.

@missbunnyrabbit by that definition my DS is naughty. He appears to know right from wrong, he is of normal intelligence and (with reminding a lot of the time) can follow instructions well. He doesn't hit, though.

In which case where the fuck am I going wrong with my parenting?!

@starfishmummy I also have this too, and the teacher has commented how well behaved DS has been when other child isn't at school. However this is always the case - it's like my DS seeks out children who aren't great influences.

I'm autistic and have adhd, I was the best behaved child, in fact too well behaved, shy, quiet, compliant, intelligent, top of the class, ND does not mean naughty, and some children are naughty due to poor parenting, putting the two things together is not right in any way

I agree that SEND children can be naughty on purpose too.

Many SEND children will be good and want to please you and not like it if they get in trouble - my DD is exactly like this.

But some are naughty on purpose - but there’s usually a reason still.

This is exactly the same as non SEND students though too.

As an example one of my students has SEMH and can be violent.
They know if they attack a someone they will be sent home - which is where they want to be so they can play their PlayStation all day.
But they only attack teachers they don’t like and students who are much smaller than them (who won’t fight back) - so it is very controlled behaviour.

Half my class were considered SEN this year. I honestly don't believe the world should be divided into NT/ND when each word can mean a complex variety of different behaviours. How about, we're all just complex human beings and problems are actually more widespread than thought.

Loads. Also, some ND kids mask at school, and behave acceptably then let it all out at home.

I believe it's unlikely to be you. I believe some children just have a character where they like to push boundaries because, you know, it's a way of learning or it can be funny or whatever the reason is.
Please don't feel bad about yourself. Children all have different personalities and some are more difficult to manage than others!

Of course this is just my opinion and I'm aware lots of people would disagree.

My ND teenager is 'naughty' as well as ND, they're still able to push boundaries and mis-behave. I genuinely believed she was naughty on a lot of occasions before the lighbulb moment, looking back I can see that some of it was to do with her Autism/ADHD, BUT sometimes she's just plain naughty, one doesn't cancel out the other.

OP to answer your question, yes, I believe I was a 'naughty' child (angelic at school)! I can remember being cheeky, disobedient, a real live wire, but I grew up eventually. I was bought up well enough to learn as I grew older what was right and wrong, but boy did i push my parents (who i am.so close to now, they were strict enough, loving enough, i was just very ......bloody minded!) Are you doubting the diagnosis? I think with my daughter, who was diagnosed quite late (age 14) that I stopped looking at certain things as being naughty as they stood out more now she's getting older, that's when I started looking into things further. The diagnosis has helped immensely although we are all on a steep learning curve now. Things have really calmed though just understanding a little more what strategies help the behaviour.

Yes. My best friend child was very naughty, defiant, hard to raise, and got kicked out of nursery and school although was doing well academically.

She always refuses an assessment. He got worse, dropped out of college, did drugs and was in a real bad place, but suddenly turned his life around.

He is now 23 and just lovely. He's got a good job he's been in for 2 years. Got rid of all drugs, and is just a very pleasant, polite and I interesting young adult.

🙄

Some of the best behaved DCs you will ever meet are also ND. So can we ask if all ND kids are dream pupils/kids instead ... no, I thought not

Feck off with your ableist nonsense

My older daughter is autistic- she has never been a naughty child - had her quirks but all manageable. Yes she has struggles but not related to bad behaviour and school struggled with the idea when she was diagnosed as it was like they had a pre tick box and she wasn’t on any of them.

My younger child is spirited - she is definitely challenging! An absolute angel at school but grows horns the moment she walks in the door! She isn’t SEN she just pushes boundaries as she gets older she has got a lot easier but we about to hit teenage years so I reckon we going to have a rollercoaster coming our way!

That stinks a little bit of 'we're all a little bit on the spectrum'.

Absolutely this. Lots of us struggle but just hide it! I was a model child at school, but horrendously shy and awkward. I can see now that I clearly fit a hell of a lot of add and autism traits, but nothing has ever been said to me

It's almost like... loads of us struggle and we just control it/mask it/hide it! Which is a part of our personalities.

OP it doesn’t sound like you’re doing anything wrong but there’s obviously something your DS is struggling with, which can be really hard to find out what.

It could something small like the feel of the carpet they need to sit on or it could be too noisy or they could have less impulse control etc etc.

It could takes years to try and work out what the issue is as he may not understand it himself.
Hopefully the teacher will start seeing some common triggers.

Whats he like when he gets home?
Often if he’s well behaved at home it could be the school environment he struggles with.

MY DD is really well behaved at school but struggles with too much going on so she used to come home and let it all out.
This is called masking.

Boys find masking much more difficult to do and will often ‘play up’ when they start feeling uncomfortable.

Most 'naughty' children I teach behave that way due to having autism or ADHD. Once the correct support is in place, their behaviour usually improves.

The rest of the 'naughty' children usually have parents who have let them get away with too much, undermine the teacher and don't take responsibility for their children's actions. The type of parent who will argue and threaten the teacher when their child has done something outrageously violent/dangerous instead of supporting the school with consequences.

Not necessarily, I'm saying that the world isn't clear cut NT/ND, and a hell of a lot of people hide problems that are considered ND.

One of my ND sons hates doing anything wrong and becomes really upset if he thinks he’s done the wrong thing. Certainly doesn’t take after me😆. This was once he’d become more aware of social expectations of course - he was more difficult as a young child.

If your judgement of a child is that they DO understand that what they are doing in wrong, yet continue to do it anyway, that is disobedience and naughtiness.

Not true. Sometimes there are reasons (ADHD, sensory issues, anxiety, depression) that make undesired behaviour compulsive and extremely difficult to manage for some children.

For example, a child who has issues with food due to being sensitive to texture being offered food at other people homes has to work SO much harder at coming across as polite than a child who eats anything and can happily thank the host for the meal as they enjoyed it all, it's no challenge. Or some kids with sensory issues have a harder touch, which can come across as overbearing but it's a very difficult thing to control and they have to work very hard at learning to touch in a lighter way or not at all.

I also find that often adults who expect perfect manners are actually quite rude themselves, they gossip and speak in a harsh way with children or other adults.

It's all rather interesting and I suspect a lot of projection is going on around adults labelling children as naughty. It can say more about the adult and their lack of parenting / teaching skills than the developing child.

But naughty is a pretty outdated concept and term and there are much smarter ways for dealing with challenging behaviour.

Meant to add too, my daughter had learnt to mask incredibly well according to the Dr who assessed her, so the school have had a hard time accepting that my 'disruptive' daughter, who 'just needs to learn to manage her behaviour' is actually struggling with being overwhelmed, or finding it hard to stay focused. She was sent out of just about every English lesson in year 8 for being disruptive. The times I've been into that school amd really had to drill down on what their definition of disruptive was, only to be told she gets distracted and starts talking or humming. Even now with a diagnosis of Autism, ADHD, & slow processing disorder the SENco is STILL saying she needs to learn to manage her behaviour, woth no extra support in place for her, even now. If the SENco can't understand it then what chance do the rest of us have.
Sorry op, I have gone off on a rant there!

@CallOnMe similar at home. Can be very angelic and helpful. Does plenty of things without fuss, like getting dressed, tidying up. And can start playing up/refusing to stop doing something, or stops but does it again a minute later, or do what's asked for seemingly no reason. Possibly boredom, but he must therefore get bored much easier than other children. He definitely lacks some impulse control, that much is clear. I don't think he masks at school, he is generally the same in most situations. Some days better than others. We don't have the shaken bottle of pop effect, because I don't think he behaves amazingly well anywhere. At school he's happy to do what he wants, but resists things he doesn't want to. And struggles with transitions when it's going from something fun, to actual work.