Are all "naughty" children actually neurodivergent?

[Ponderingthemeaningoflife]

As the subject asks. The children in my life (friends, family, DC school peers, colleagues' children) fall into two camps - the ones who can be stubborn at home, but tend to behave fabulously for anyone who isn't their parents including at school.

And those who are challenging in many settings, don't like to conform, oppositional. So many of these are being referred for ADHD/Autism after a year or two at school, mine included.

Does anyone have any actual experience of "naughty" children (by naughty I mean doesn't do what they're asked, refusal to comply, cheeky, rude, attitude) who did eventually grow out of it?

Thank you, honestly this is what we have to deal with being told our child is obviously provoking them to act that way, my son doesn’t engage with him or speak to him, he throws chairs around and books at children swears at the teacher, he doesn’t just target my son so not it’s not something my son is doing to cause it, how rude to suggest that! My younger son says he is the same in the playground and everyone is scared of him, He has no friends as they are scared to go near him, why should children be scared to go to school then the parents say well it’s obviously your child is provoking them. So if he is doing it to everyone are they all provoking him them? I agree the child shouldn’t be in mainstream. My son left football club because of this boy and I lost out on my money as I paid it upfront, very insulting to blame to victim.

This. Completely agree that most humans mask. If a child can behave at home then of course they can behave at school. It is a choice not to. We all adapt our behaviour to suit the situation. Yes, this is very easy for some and more difficult for others, but we all have to learn how to do it, otherwise you'd have inappropriate behaviour everywhere by everybody.

With that concept then My children, who are both exceptionally well behaved, should be NT, but they're not unfortunately

Bad behaviour has various factors, sone SEN, some trauma and some just bad parenting or nature/nurture bad behaviours

he didn’t “get in his face” we was walking past him when he said it

I didn’t suggest he did, I was talking about my DS. You implied that violence =/= autism and I was explaining that it can look like violence.

A more sensible way to deal with your concerns might be to explain to your DS that the little boy has a special type of brain, that it sometimes makes it hard for him to cope with noise or crowds, and that can make him
lash out. DS should be extra kind to him because he isn’t doing it on purpose. I believe that’s called “parenting” and reading posts like your unhinged ranting about disabled people, I find it hilarious that ASC parents are the ones accused of not doing it properly.

You should also speak to the teacher or SENCo about additional TA support to help manage the behaviour of the other kid.

Of course your DS should not be harmed st school, but this is a failure of the school
and LA rather than the overwhelmed child who you so desperately want to blame.

My ND children are terrified of being told off and are frankly the best 'behaved' kids that I've ever come across. They are absolute sticklers for following the rules.
So, no - of course not all 'naughty' children are ND just as not all ND children are 'naughty'.

I reckon if my brother had been born 10 years later he'd have been diagnosed with ADHD. He was a nightmare child, really very difficult, no sense of danger etc. Puberty came and he turned in to a dream. Definitely NT.

This. I feel so strongly about all of this and it is so nice to people with this viewpoint for once.

As I said before, I have never been identified and diagnosed with anything because I'm very quiet and just got on with it. I definitely have autism and add traits that make it hard for me to fit in to society. I had an awful life at school with no friends. Finally, at 18, I decided I didn't want to be like this anymore so over the last ten years I have been copying everyone around me to the extent that I now pass as a 'normal' person! We all have to learn how to behave in society. Some of us find that harder than others. You have to try.

I get what you're asking and it's a very interesting discussion.

I'm an absolute believer that all behaviour is communication.

But it's not always neuro divergence in the sense of a diagnosis or condition or neuro difference like adhd and asd. But often the route cause is a difference in functioning that's not being met.

Dyslexia is a huge one which causes behavioural difficulties within education and it's accepted now any specific learning difficulty can have an affect on self esteem and therefore behaviour. Many class clowns are covering from what they see as a deficit in themselves and causes low self esteem which is actually just a learning difference .

Lots of these children will have difficult home lives - which include being spoilt. I include being spoilt and having no boundaries because if you get inconsistent messages continually from lots of care givers then you can develop MH difficulties such as anxiety and can also have behaviours very similar to those found in attachment disorder because secure attachments can't be firmed when you don't know what adults will accept what behaviours.

I've seen children who are entirely NT in the literature sense of the term behave appealing at school (in the behavioural policy sense of the term) and then become very difficult at home too.

"Out of control" teens who we often see parents seek help for on here are also communicating something. Be it a need for more autonomy feeling in their lives or not feeling a sense of belonging which often in a precursor for befriending people who are a bad influence (and these groups are experts at seeking people with this low self confidence)

So yes, some children will deliberately set out to disrupt and disturb others through their behaviour. But if we consider that always having punishments and people alienating you is against human nature and doesn't actually mean they gain something positive from the behaviour you have to consider the child isn't functioning well at the time.

I knew a girl who would always play up and deliberately push the boundaries set by other adults. She wasn't pleasant to be around. But her mum had no boundaries for her and even when she drew on others walls at their houses her mum would always excuse it. And of course - everything became about her behaviour and she was centre of attention for her actions so what incentive was there for her to stop?
She eventually had 2 failed secondary placements when her mum wouldn't allow schools to deal with the behaviour but wanted them to excuse it for a variety of reasons and did her GCSEs online learning through a PRU.

Her and her do not speak now. She blames her mum for not showing her cares by putting in boundaries.

DS should be extra kind to him because he isn’t doing it on purpose

This was the attitude of the staff at my school. The boy physically assaulted pupils and teachers and his victims were told to #bekind. It’s a hideous life lesson. In what adult world would we ask adults to be extra kind to people who are physically assaulting or verbally abusing them?

We absolutely need to encourage kids to be tolerant of differences, but not in circumstances where they’re being physically or mentally harmed, FFS.

Lots of NT children are naughty.

Usually due to poor parenting, so no boundaries, inconsistent consequences or no consequences, lack of modelling of good behaviour etc.

Clearly, your child shouldn't be in a mainstream school, that behaviour is shocking and unfair on everybody. Secondly, no one on here knows your son, so no one can say whether he knows what he is doing or not

Great, I’ll get on to the LA and tell them that a poster on MN who has never met my son thinks he needs a specialist place shall I? Im
sure that will help. In the meantime, I’ll be breaking the law if I don’t send him to mainstream school where he will behave exactly as I described. Any more great suggestions?

In fairness to the LA, there are not many places that can cater to profoundly autistic people with IQ’s in the very upper ranges. So it’s really not as simple, on any level, as you seem to think.

If he has a normal IQ and no learning difficulties, and understands his own actions, then autistic or not, his behaviour is naughty if he continues to do something he has been asked not to

Another person who knows jack about how autistic children can present. Again, please educate yourself - there are hundreds of publications explaining the links between ASC and sensory challenges, ADHD, and overwhelm/meltdown. Behaviour is often compulsive and the child is not in control.

Nope. Nurture plays a part too. There are plenty of feral children running around from troubled families, shouting abuse to passers by, harassing whole neighbourhoods, littering, vandalising and one ten year old had a knife against a small child's throat a few years ago. Then there's the spoiled brats of more well off families who are allowed to be generally unpleasant all the time. Encouraged from birth to be awful, selfish, grabby and even violent.

I completely understand. This is actually making me a bit emotional because I've had to deal with similar behaviour this year in my class from a variety of children with SEN needs. There's a few issues going on here, but if these children with SEN are intelligent enough, that is they don't have learning difficulties, then a lot of them do understand what they are doing. And in that case, it is completely unacceptable and plain naughty and horrible.
Some children with autism also have learning difficulties which means they don't understand. That's not naughtiness,, of course. They don't know what they're doing!
But either way, whether a child understands or not, if they continue to act like that they should NOT be in mainstream. I feel so so strongly about this. I have had little children in my class hit, smacked, kicked, screamed at, sworn at etc this year. It is unbearable. As a teacher, I felt utterly helpless. You're not allowed to give consequences to children with SEN in my school, despite them knowing what they're doing!!!

"there is a boy in my sons class who has asd who throws chairs around the class, throws books at children, threatens them, swears at the teacher, but apparently you can’t be autistic and naughty and he’s only doing it cos he is autistic"

My friends daughter ( diagnosed age 3) did most of that when in mainstream school without proper support. She is now in mainstream classrooms in a different school with proper support and she doesn't do it. She is fortunate that her parents were able to fight for the support she needed including going to Tribunal to get it as rarely do disabled children get the support they need without parents fighting for it.

We absolutely need to encourage kids to be tolerant of differences, but not in circumstances where they’re being physically or mentally harmed, FFS

But what’s the alternative? Go back to the days of asylums and lock autistic children away from the world? Or finish Asperger’s work for him?

The failure is the school’s. In all likelihood, the child cannot control the behaviour. My DS is exceptionally distressed when he finds out he’s hurt us during a meltdown.

Another rude person. I'm very educated thanks. I don't think you are, though?

True meltdowns are different and rare, they are out of control. Some people get confused between what is an autistic meltdown and what is a temper tantrum, however. Parents will claim their child is out of control, except they stop when they get what they want. To me, that is very in control.

Mumsnet shows time and time again that Autism is a topic with huge disagreements and misunderstandings on all sides.

I am not sure it's as simple as that. I do think that "naughtiness" at age 3 or 4 or 5 is pretty common and has nothing to do with whether a child is NT or ND. As they get older, I'd say that a relatively high percentage of children who display "naughty" behaviour are ND, but certainly not all. Some may simply be badly parented. Some may be responding to trauma. Some may not have the emotional or intellectual skills to manage their behaviour. It's certainly not a given that the child is ND.

Also, as a parent with a child who is ND - I agree with others that the trick is helping those children to navigate the world. I want him to be accepted and I am appreciative of accommodations that are made for him, but, assuming he lives a long and healthy life, he is going to have to navigate a lot of situations and people and places where accommodations are not going to be made. So he is going to have to learn how to do figure out solutions for himself.

Their are some clueless people on this thread. People will patiently explain things to them but they won't get it because they don't want to get it.

"What's the alternative?" Are you for real? You actually think it's ok for children in mainstream to be abused?
This is extremely upsetting and disturbing.

True meltdowns are different and rare, they are out of control. Some people get confused between what is an autistic meltdown and what is a temper tantrum, however

My son was hospitalized and needed stitches after headbutting a wall repeatedly, after I bought milk with a blue lid instead of a green lid. He couldn’t remember anything after seeing me with the milk. Is that “autistic meltdown” enough for you or would you like more examples that he’s not just a little shit having a tantrum?

Out of interest, would you insist a child in a wheelchair played football? Because it’s kind of the same.

You may well be correct about specialist schools. But until then, mainstream is the only game in town and legally we have to keep sending them in. If you want to do something constructive (and complaining about disabled children on MN clearly isn’t that) please help us support our children by pressuring the schools to put proper support in place. Because no LA can pull hundreds of special school places out if their arsehole.

Nobody is saying that it's OK but what would you suggest? It is the school and local authority's failure to provide adequate support to children in mainstream schools who struggle for a variety of reasons relating to their SEN.

"Another rude person. I'm very educated thanks. I don't think you are, though?"

If you are a teacher in a mainstream school you probably won't have much understanding of autism.

"What's the alternative?" Are you for real? You actually think it's ok for children in mainstream to be abused?

Quite obviously I was talking about alternatives to mainstream. My options with DS are:

• remove him from school. LA under no further obligation to help. I get prosecuted and probably a SS referral.
• keep sending him to mainstream school. Maintain vague hope that the LA will find a suitable place for him. Hope the school manages his behaviour.

saying “he shouldn’t be in mainstream” is about as helpful as saying”Father Christmas should exist”. Yes, it would be great. No, it’s not realistic because these places either don’t exist or are not funded.

Every child deserves an education, including those with disabilities.

I would suggest that the child who is physically harming other children is home educated (there being no legal requirement to send them to that specific school) until proper provision can be made. No parent in that situation will do that, and I understand that to a point, but in lieu of that they are expecting young children to somehow be able to rationalise and cope with being attacked at school.

You are not going to be able to insist that your child’s employees put up with this on the basis of the importance of tolerance, and I really struggle that some think it’s ok to insist that young children put up with it because there’s just no other choice.

The failure is the school’s

I disagree. Usually the failure is down to a lack of funding from the LEA, due to government policy.

We had a child a few years back who repeatedly lashed out at staff and children-causing significant distress and some permanent scarring. There is no diagnosis, but in all likelihood they have ASD with a PDA profile-the parents don’t wish to seek a diagnosis and school cannot refer. They have an EHCP and professionals recommend alternative provision but there are no spaces anywhere locally. They really need 2:1 to keep staff and peers safe in a mainstream environment, but the funding allocated only actually covers 1:1 for about 80% of the day (including the £6000 the school has to provide). The parents believe the funding will pay for a specialist autism teacher, in reality it allows the school to hire someone totally untrained on just above minimum wage.

This is not the school’s fault.