Are all "naughty" children actually neurodivergent?

[Ponderingthemeaningoflife]

As the subject asks. The children in my life (friends, family, DC school peers, colleagues' children) fall into two camps - the ones who can be stubborn at home, but tend to behave fabulously for anyone who isn't their parents including at school.

And those who are challenging in many settings, don't like to conform, oppositional. So many of these are being referred for ADHD/Autism after a year or two at school, mine included.

Does anyone have any actual experience of "naughty" children (by naughty I mean doesn't do what they're asked, refusal to comply, cheeky, rude, attitude) who did eventually grow out of it?

I completely agree about sensory problems, I forgot to mention that but I struggle with many sensory problems myself so completely understand. If a child was refusing to do something or acting in a way because a sensory issue was making them uncomfortable, then obviously that's not naughtiness.
I taught a little autistic boy this year who would become extremely upset if you asked him to take his jumper off, he never took it off. And thats fine, it was clearly a sensory thing as there were other issues too, and that's completely understandable.

However, I stick by what I said for the majority of cases. If either a NT/ND child ran down the corridor after you asked them not to run, and they continually looked back to see if you are still looking, then to me that is naughtiness provided they have a sufficient IQ and no learning difficulties in that sense. They have been told not to do something, and are clever enough to understand, yet do it anyway.

It will depend on the child of course but a LOT of awful behaviour is ignored because it's by a child with SEN, yet a lot of these children are considered clever and able and seem to clearly understand.

The children I work with know right from wrong, but when they're in crisis they don't have full control of themselves. Also, often the behaviour is a cry for help, some would call it attention seeking, we say attention needing.

Our SENCO says "all behaviour is communication" which is probably what PP's SENCO is getting at rather than saying there's no such thing as bad behaviour.

there is a boy in my sons class who has asd who throws chairs around the class, throws books at children, threatens them, swears at the teacher, but apparently you can’t be autistic and naughty and he’s only doing it cos he is autistic

Thats exactly how my profoundly autistic son behaves in the classroom. He finds school overwhelming and fears demands being made of him. His behaviour is compulsive and a symptom of an overloaded mind, rather than because he’s a horrible little shit (as your post implies). So yeah, it’s totally because he’s autistic.

Please educate yourself.

Now there is an autistic character if ever I knew one! (as portrayed in the musical). Quiet is the best description of hyper fixation & sensory overload ever!

Where did I say horrible little shit? Your words not mine, I just think he’s naughty and autistic, because you can be both, he’s not profoundly autistic either he is in a mainstream school with no 1:1, he also threatened to punch my son in the face and called him stupid, is that because he is autistic too?

*Some of the best behaved DCs you will ever meet are also ND. So can we ask if all ND kids are dream pupils/kids instead ... no, I thought not

Feck off with your ableist nonsense*

This. With giant swinging gold cocks on.

In addition to all the other problems with overstating the correlation of naughtiness with neurodivergence, there is the fact that it contributes to the underdiagnosis of various difficulties in girls, whose neurodivergence is often less likely to result in behaviour that is judged to be disruptive.

A side point: This catch-all term 'neurodivergent, and its catch-all antonym 'neurotypical' strikes me as horrible and unhelpful. I'm sure we don't know enough about the brain (and about the very many ways in which individual brains can vary) to be able to authorititively deem one set of neurological features to be 'typical'. And even if we could, everyone's brains would diverge from it to a greater or lesser extent.

There are as many ways of being what is called 'neurotypical' as there are ways of being neurodiverse, and the fiction of a monolithic 'typicality' that only unwell/challenged people 'diverge' from seems to stigmatise both groups.

Some children are just poorly disciplined with parents who have inconsistent boundaries.

No.

The same as all neurodivergent children are not naughty.

Kids test boundaries, it's called growing up. Much of this behaviour will be considered naughty. They eventually mature and develop and push boundaries in other ways.
Id be a bit concerned if a child is always compliant and is never 'naughty'.

Because he is autistic I should allow him to threaten my son and call him names 🤔 my son doesn’t want to go to school because he is scared of him and I should go and “educate myself” you can bully people and be autistic, it’s not impossible to be a bully because you have autism.

If your child is being referred for adhd or autism the process of assessment is rigorous and a diagnosis won't be made unless the behaviour exists in more than one setting for a prolonged period of time.

I get very irritated by parents who insist that their child is badly behaved at home, but when that bad behaviour does not happen at school, it's because they are 'masking.'

In my view, if they can behave in school, they can also behave at home. I have read a lot of articles purporting to demonstrate how masking works, and how terribly exhausting it is for anyone who does it, but I don't agree.

We all 'mask' to a certain extent. For instance, when we are at a wedding, or in church, we subtly change our behaviour to match the event. We don't behave the same way at a football match as we do when we're out shopping.

That is why a diagnosis of autism or ADHD is based on the same behaviour being shown in more than one setting.

I do believe that children can be naughty without necessarily being neurodivergent.

@BiscoffSundae without butting in, just because the boy doesn't have a 1-1 and is in mainstream doesn't mean he's not profoundly autistic. The waiting lists are very, very long for school age children. It's "lucky" if your child is referred and seen whilst of preschool age, and also if it was pre-covid. The waiting list in my area is now minimum two years just for the first appointment with a paediatrician.

Snap. My son runs around and is constantly jumping around and hyperactive. He also can't use a toilet or respond to his name being called. And he can't even communicate a basic need of needing a drink

Either way my point still stands I should accept my son being bullied because the child bullying him has autism? Hmm...

... stick a label on and suddenly it's fine!

Honestly, I think children need to learn to "behave" so that they can negotiate the complexity of our world/ society.

You can say, that they can't help themselves ect. But in the end they need to be able to live life as an adult.

It's hard and it's difficult because schools and many workplaces don't cater for different types of people. They have a one size fits all approach ... I really think that the increasing in the number of children with a ND diagnosis is a direct result of this.
plus children are starting school far to early!

Where did I say horrible little shit?

I wrote that you implied it. Reading comprehension not the best, then?

no he’s not profoundly autistic either he is in a mainstream school with no 1:1

My profoundly autistic son attends mainstream school and has an IQ of >160. You clearly know jack shit about autism.

he also threatened to punch my son in the face and called him stupid, is that because he is autistic too?

Possibly. My DS would do that of another child got in his face at a time when he was struggling with sensory overload. It’s impulsive and he can’t control it. He knows hitting is wrong, but pre-meltdown he quite literally has zero impulse control. Of course the LA are literally falling over themselves to offer DS a funded place in a specialist school…said nobody ever.

Do you expect all NT people to behave in exactly the same way? If not, why do you expect it of autistic people?

Again, please educate yourself (especially if you really do have an autistic DS).

Worth noting too that the term SEN refers to Special Education Need, specifically that a child is not progressing as expected in one or more areas and needs additional support in order to access/progress in those areas.

SN refers to Special Needs, such as a long term condition and/or disability.

Not all children with SN will have SEN and visa versa, although there is often an overlap.

I have a NT child who was on the SEN register at school for a time as they were behind in one specific area of learning (SAL). They had support to help bring them on, targets to work towards, and their progress was monitored. By the end of the school term they were back in line with age related expectations, did not need further support, and so came off the SEN register.

I also have two disabled children who are on the SEN register as their disabilities impact on their ability to access education without the correct support, they can do the work but they need scaffolding in order to do so. Both have an EHCP.

Having multiple children with SEN in a class doesn't mean that they all have disabilities, medical conditions, or neurodevelopment issues.

Some are just like that. Some have shit parents. Some have been though traumatic stuff. Some are ND.
Bad behaviour is not autistic behaviour and I wish people would stop connecting the two.

oh god here we go, he didn’t “get in his face” we was walking past him when he said it, my son didn’t even look in his direction, and there we have it blaming someone for being bullied or implying they provoked it in some way 🤦🏻

But this does not get a diagnosis. To be diagnosed with a condition you actually need to have the condition and there are thresholds for that diagnosis.

Poor parenting does not cause autism, adhd, pda, etc.

Please don't be so rude as to assume people aren't educated.

Clearly, your child shouldn't be in a mainstream school, that behaviour is shocking and unfair on everybody. Secondly, no one on here knows your son, so no one can say whether he knows what he is doing or not.
If he has a normal IQ and no learning difficulties, and understands his own actions, then autistic or not, his behaviour is naughty if he continues to do something he has been asked not to.

Yes, my brother. He’s still a bit of a prick, tbh, but settled down, grew out of it, did well at secondary school and is a doctor.

This so much, I HATE that we are dividing society into NT and ND, with the assumption that no one with NT has any problems and their lives are dandy. Humans are complex. It drives me nuts when people try to fit us into two neat little boxes.

Yabu. My child is neurodiverse and is the kindest, most 'well behaved' around other children. She has to be like that to mask her autism and try and fit in in a neurotypical world.

Many neurotypical children are badly behaved little shites.