Are all "naughty" children actually neurodivergent?

[Ponderingthemeaningoflife]

As the subject asks. The children in my life (friends, family, DC school peers, colleagues' children) fall into two camps - the ones who can be stubborn at home, but tend to behave fabulously for anyone who isn't their parents including at school.

And those who are challenging in many settings, don't like to conform, oppositional. So many of these are being referred for ADHD/Autism after a year or two at school, mine included.

Does anyone have any actual experience of "naughty" children (by naughty I mean doesn't do what they're asked, refusal to comply, cheeky, rude, attitude) who did eventually grow out of it?

There are lots of neurodiverse kids who are perfectly well behaved.

The op seems to imply that ASD/ADHD is trotted out as an excuse for bad behaviour/not a real diagnosis which is incredibly offensive and ableist

Why on earth do you think that someone being labelled 'neurotypical' means they will have an easy life?!
It's not NT = easy life and ND = hard life.

I find it extremely offensive. It's just plain dumb to try to put human beings into two perfect boxes.

So what's the definition then of doing something you've been told not to do, and you make an active choice to do it anyway?

*Why on earth do you think that someone being labelled 'neurotypical' means they will have an easy life?!
It's not NT = easy life and ND = hard life.

I find it extremely offensive. It's just plain dumb to try to put human beings into two perfect boxes.*

Wow imagine taking a person's account of the way their child's additional needs impacts their life and making it all about you. I have nt children and one with SEN and I can assure you, life is harder since the latter.

Some of the comments on here are absolutely shocking and show a lack of awareness of autism and the way it can present across the spectrum. For those children who have been diagnosed by a clinican, their parents could tell you that it is a long drawn out process with lots of assessments from school and at home. For those saying that if it presents only at home and not a school, quite frankly don't have a clue what they are talking about and should educate themselves before making such inflammatory statements that can cause offence. My ASD and ADHD (11) is good as gold in school and is actually very frightened of getting things wrong or in trouble. As he has got older, he is also actuely aware that he is 'different' to his classmates and he tries his best to fit in and follow the social norms. He spends each day trying to read situations and emotions that he doesn't fully understand, keep friendships going and try to navigate through changing and developing relationships. He also has to work out the NT memebers of his class calling him autistic boy. ' kick the ball properly autistic boy' should he have to put up with that?! He tries to work out expectations of each of his different teachers and classrooms. By the time he gets home he has masked all day and like a PP explained its the coke bottle effect. Someone observing our family home could claim he is just naughty and disrespectful (and sometimes he is) but a lot of the time he is in a meltdown and cannot help his reactions. Whenever he comes out of the meltdown he is deeply sorry and ashamed but can often not remember the content of the meltdown. Now try having that level of anxiety every day and in every situation!

No-one is saying that any other child should be on the receiving end of any violence and this should be managed by the school and the correct support given to all students. The level of support and provision for SEN students is so poor and that it can be a contributing factor in a disregulated child presenting like they are naughty.

As a teacher I have witnessed many vulnerable and SEN students being wound up, provoked and bullied by students who are aware of how that child will react and they sit by and watch their reactions and punishment with glee.

Other PP are quite rightly said that some NT children are naughty (could be for a variety of different reasons) and some not. In the same way some ND children can be naughty and take advantage of a situation. However, when a ND child is in a meltdown they are not being naughty and these meltdowns can present in many different ways.

Ignorant comment, please educate yourself. :)
If you actually think human beings can be sorted into two boxes then ...wow. The fact that you have sorted your children is bizarre. Your NT children might have secret difficulties that they hide, you have no idea what they might be thinking or masking, just because they are compliant and well behaved or whatever.

You cannot just sort people into neat boxes.

Ignorant comment, please educate yourself. :)
If you actually think human beings can be sorted into two boxes then ...wow. The fact that you have sorted your children is bizarre. Your NT children might have secret difficulties that they hide, you have no idea what they might be thinking or masking, just because they are compliant and well behaved or whatever.

You don't have any experience of SEN do you? 😆

Imagine trying to tell people there is no difference between children with SEN and those without. Lol.

To get a diagnosis of autism you have to meet the criteria and have the triad of impairments, regardless of where somebody is on the spectrum and it is classed as a disability ,some are very impacted by their autism some less so so whilst yes not everyone whon8s neutotypical will have an easy life and not everyone who isn't neurotypical will have a hard life ,having a disability however will make life harder for most people .

I was as good as gold throughout my school years, a high achiever, team player etc. Never disruptive, always a helpful teacher’s pet type. Found out as an adult I have ADHD. Not everyone who is ND is “naughty”!

I think you are the one that needs to educate themselves ,I have a severely autistic child and whilst imm well aware not everyone with a diagnosis is impacted as he is I know an awful lot of families who have children with autism, and it makes their lives harder in many ways.

This!

All this masking makes it confusing. I know heaps of kids diagnosed with Adhd and autism who seem to me to be completely normal in every way. I've had them over at the house, they play nicely, concentrate normally, have friends. But then their Mums talk about these diagnosis as if they were biological realities rather than a collection of symptoms (what symptoms?)

So when people with ND kids accuse us of not understanding, I mean, yes it's true thar I don't understand. I accept that the kids are masking, but I never see the other side to them so it is all a bit baffling tbh.

My son who has autism is exceptionally well behaved. Too much so in fact.

Well I've just had a very challenging day with ds who has ASD, and he is being punished with a youtube ban, because today's behaviour was just down to him being a little shit and not triggers/situations he finds hard due to autism.

I think OP doesn't realise how much background work goes into a diagnosis. They do look at sibling behaviour to exclude rubbish parenting. There is a lot of questioning of parents strategies, and teachers strategies. Is the defiant behaviour due to anxiety, or just because no boundaries have ever been set?

Parents of SEN kids get a tough ride, he is 3 times as much work as his sister. His sister gets a raw deal. He also gets a bad deal, school is miserable for him.

Yes, I have some very active boys, to put in nicely. They fire each other up. Nobody has ever suggested that they are ND they just get excited by their own ideas and get carried away.

Not divergent. Diverse.

I'm not in love with dichotomy implied here though - is it a disability or just bad parenting? Maybe it's neither? Kids are various.

Just to flip the coin my ND child has never misbehaved anywhere for anyone, even me. I've never had to tell her off , punish her or even raise an eyebrow. She does as asked first time every time and follows every rule to the letter. My NT son (I have ND son as well) is most definitely NT and was a bloody nightmare for his teachers but well behaved at home and everywhere else. There was a time I spoke more to the school than I did my own family. He just saw school as a place where he could have fun with his mates and let his hair down (probably because having ND siblings and being such a responsible, caring and sensitive big brother to them left him needing a release I suppose)

I find it concerning that children who are badly behaved must be ND.

Usually they aren't.
Similarly, most haven't suffered a trauma.
Mostly it's bad parenting but NO ONE is allowed to say that.

@Porcupineintherough my daughter is the same, it isn't a good thing, her independent specialist school celebrated when she managed to say she'd "rather not" instead of complying regardless.

OP - I was you until my DS was 8. Poor behaviour at school. Distracting others on purpose, spinning on carpet, making noises, not doing as he was told, having tantrums. I thought it was my parenting, everyone had an opinion. I was too strict, not strict enough, I spoiled him, was too hard on him. After a horrific melt down at school where he threw chairs around the hall I took him to get a private assessment. Turns out he has ADHD and autism and had been trying soooooo hard to mask but it was never quite enough.

He is now medicated and my parenting shines through - he is polite, kind and considerate, funny and working at greater depth with excellent effort in all areas - he has been medicated for just 6 months. This year was the first that I read his school report without crying. People saying that ND is an excuse obviously don’t have a ND child. Happy children do not misbehave. Being ND and misunderstood, a square peg in a round hole, makes ND children unhappy. Investigate further, OP. It was the best parenting decision I ever made.

He is now medicated and my parenting shines through - he is polite, kind and considerate, funny and working at greater depth with excellent effort in all areas - he has been medicated for just 6 months

This is heartening to read. We’re about to start DS on Ritalin and Risperidone. The decision to medicate has not been made without guilt on my part, and I’ve had my arse handed to me from certain quarters for not letting DS be his own authentic autistic self. On balance I’ve decided it’s better for his massive, weird-ass brain if he can concentrate and sleep better. Thanks for sharing.

I think the majority of naughty children have parents who are not great at parenting.

Wow imagine taking a person's account of the way their child's additional needs impacts their life and making it all about you. I have nt children and one with SEN and I can assure you, life is harder since the latter

Thabks @HailAdrian - I think “imagine” is the key word here. 🙄It’s literally incredible that a person could be so simplistic, and lack insight and intellectual rigour to this extent, while supposedly working with children.

@missbunnyrabbit In the unlikely event that you’re not on a wind-up, I can assure you that every pediatrician, psychiatrist, clinician and researcher who has ever so much as glanced in the direction of an autistic person vehemently disagrees with your hateful opinions, based on extensive peer-reviewed clinical research. For the sake of any future autistic kids who end up in your class (and they assuredly will), please read what the experts have to say, since you obviously wont take our word for it.