Are all "naughty" children actually neurodivergent?

[Ponderingthemeaningoflife]

As the subject asks. The children in my life (friends, family, DC school peers, colleagues' children) fall into two camps - the ones who can be stubborn at home, but tend to behave fabulously for anyone who isn't their parents including at school.

And those who are challenging in many settings, don't like to conform, oppositional. So many of these are being referred for ADHD/Autism after a year or two at school, mine included.

Does anyone have any actual experience of "naughty" children (by naughty I mean doesn't do what they're asked, refusal to comply, cheeky, rude, attitude) who did eventually grow out of it?

More than likely.

My son is 10, and also a thrower/shouter, swearer/threatener. It is never without provokation or trigger. Ever. What did your son do that led to the child feeling that way about him? Or is yours a perfect angel who would never, ever whisper some nasty little quip to the other disabled kid but then get away with it because they're 'so well behaved?' All children misbehave wilfully at times. All ND children struggle to regulate their behaviour to some extent. It's not a competition, and my child isn't any less worthy of humanity than yours.

To be clear, my son is 1:1 full time in mainstream AND profoundly autistic. You can be both. So, as the PP said: please educate yourself. Properly.

So you're saying that you think children with Autism cannot be naughty?!?! My child has Autism and very much IS naughty in ways that have absolutely ZERO association to her ASD! She's a little sh*t when she wants to be....🙈
Yes she can also behave in ways that may appear to others as naughty, but actually it's a manifestation of her ASD. 90% of the time though, she's just plain naughty...!

No. It isn't. Education is a human right that, at primary age, the government is legally responsible to provide. Additionally, any child with 1:1 has an EHCP, which legally prescribes their education needs and rights. Not surprised you're refusing to engage, people usually do when they know deep down that they are wrong.

'The children in my life (friends, family, DC school peers, colleagues' children) fall into two camps - the ones who can be stubborn at home, but tend to behave fabulously for anyone who isn't their parents including at school.'

You just described my ND child...it's called masking.

No, it's on the LA of a 'violent' child to ensure alternative provision is in place. Parents discharge their legal duty to provide education when they enroll a child in school. It is then up to the school and LA to ensure that child's needs are met and if they are met appropriately, you won't have a violent child on your hands.

"So you're saying that you think children with Autism cannot be naughty?!?!"

She is saying that it is unlikely that her child is being "naughty".
The same with my own. His behaviour however challenging it may be, is focused on getting his needs met so he doesn't feel hungry, thirsty, in pain or feel sensory distress. He has no interest in winding up or annoying anyone else or having things for material reasons.

The LA aren't under any legal obligation to provide any provision once a child is home educated.

No, there are naughty neurotypical children and angelically behaved neurodiverse kids, just like with most of life, it varies

Also whilst some neurodiverse children do not understand right and wrong - others are very aware and can be naughty!

It's not a competition, and my child isn't any less worthy of humanity than yours

Absolutely, this. It is utterly depressing to come on a MN thread and see mothers and caregivers talking about disabled children in such a contemptuous way. Any of us (including all the PP's who want autistic children to magically disappear from their own children's space) might find ourselves in the position of fighting for appropriate support for our child, there isn't a special "queue" for the SN/SEN/ND/whatever parents. None of us signed up for this, and most of us are only doing our best for our children, as any decent parent would.

Some PP's should re-read their posts and reflect on what they are teaching their own children about inclusivity. And FAOD nobody has or would suggest that children just accept being harmed at school.

Mine is a little shit to be honest! And no diagnosis of anything, just a brat sometimes (but absolutely lovely the rest of the time)

I was diagnosed with ADD when I was 42. It came about because my DS (then 8) was referred and I recognised similar traits in myself.

My DS struggled with formal education but has nevertheless become a very respected chef. Academia just didn't suit him. However this has only happened in the last three years. In between he has also been a complete arse.

I think it needs to be remembered that MH differences and being an arsehole are not mutually exclusive.

People can be badly behaved regardless of their MH status. The trick is to distinguish between the two and to try and embrace the benefits of such a diagnosis. In my case it's hyper focus. (As my DS) if they find something they love then it will be the making of them.

I'm a criminal investigator. There is an 'up side'. ! I am like a dog with a bone and will not stop until I have my wo(men) ..

It's hard but try and embrace e the positives as they are !

I didn't say that all ,I was pointing out that's children like my son have no concept of "naughty " because of how their autism impacts then 🙄

Quite.

And then we're told how 'grateful' we should be for our child's disability, because it's a 'super power,' and that we 'wouldn't change them for the world.' Well fuck right off, I would take away this pain from him in an instant.

DD has a friend over today, DS is struggling to cope with this and just had a screaming fit at me. Yes, this is 'bad' behaviour, yes he has been reprimanded and told it's unacceptable. Then he sobbed all over me that 'I'm just angry because I never have a friend over like she does,' which is true. Because he doesn't have friends the way she does. It's devastating for him, devastating for me as his Mum, and yet the kids who wind him up are 'victims' when he retaliates and we should feel sorry for them. I don't. They're snide little fuckers whose behaviour is far more damaging to the world than his will ever be.

Nevermind though, he's just a 'naughty' kid who deserves to be excluded at all times, obviously.

(DS is actually soft as anything, extremely sensitive and empathetic, fiercely loyal and defensive of those few who are kind to him. But because he shouts and swears when he can't cope in a disabling environment he's considered awful. It's extremely upsetting.)

@BiscoffSundae
it is not you who needs to educate themselves.

I can only comment on younger children (under-5s) and don't have sufficient experience of neurodiversity and how it manifests and is diagnosed in older children to judge whether most 'naughtiness' is in fact neurodiversity, though it sounds unlikely to me. This is all anecdotal as well.

The sweetest child I know of my DC's age (4yo) is ND (autism). He is a very kind, considerate, caring little boy who would happily give up a toy or a biscuit to another child who wanted them because he loves to make people happy. He also finds a lot of things overwhelming or triggering, and can have extreme meltdowns and throw things, bite and hit with this happens. I would not describe him as 'naughty' in the very least. Like all children, he has his moments but on the whole I would say he is a much 'better-behaved' child than his NT brother and my NT DC.

That said, most 'naughtiness' which I have seen in under-5s is a combination of poor impulse control, high energy levels, a strong will and confidence rather than anything else. An energetic, strong-willed, confident preschooler who is into anything and everything is much more likely to be labelled 'naughty' than a shy compliant child because, for example, they find it hard to sit still in circle time (while the more compliant child finds it easy) and fall easily into mischief while quieter children often hang back and observe rather than jumping in head first. Our early education system is a better fit for some children than other children. However, as children grow up, they generally become better able to channel their energy and control their impulses so I suppose many do grow out what may have been termed 'naughtiness' early on and it may be evidence of other issues being in play if they do not (hence the general reluctance to diagnose very young children).

@Moonface123 I do tend to agree with your post; however it feels very much like the majority of children are able to conform and comply with little resistance.

I hope my DS is able to reach his potential as an adult, whatever that potential might be.

@Goldbar it's interesting, however my DS at only just turned 3 was the least compliant at his pre-school - the manager was sure to tell me this when I asked outright: "The other children get in line/wash their hands/sit down for stories when I ask". So already he was less "typical", at that tiny age. He's not as bad, and he has apparently improved in terms of obedience since the beginning of Year One to the end, but I suppose not at the rate of the other children.

@Lindasllama your job sounds fascinating, congratulations on finding something so well suited to you. I'm still on the hunt for that!

Loads of NT kids are naughty for loads of reasons:
bad parenting - violence, neglect, over-indulgence etc
traumatic incidents (parents splitting up or fighting; severe illness at home etc)
sudden hormone surges

When life improves, their behaviour improves.

DS2 is ND and afaik, no more difficult than most kids. He had his moments and he never got great school reports until he was diagnosed and given supposrt. But i was never called up to school or told he caused problems.

@Goldbar Yes, it is heartbreaking. I absolutely understand and I hate all this "super power" schtick. I would do anything to make DS' life easier and to ease his anxiety, but the only thing that would do that is to make him NT - which we are told is somehow "denying his true identity". I sometimes feel stuck between a rock, a hard place and another rock - i.e. the parents who just want DS to disappear from their naice school and their children (who never get the blame for anything in which DS is also involved because scapegoating), the ill-informed twats who think autism a superpower (but can't cope with DS for more than a few minutes) and the typically very "high functioning" advocates for autistic people who think the reason DS gets destabilised is because I am not managing his sensory needs adequately.

DS has no friends. He cannot understand why other people don't want to spend breaks memorising things or walking in a circle a set number of times. The school saw some "improvement" when he started hanging out with a group of girls. It turned out they were plaiting his hair, putting him in dressing up clothes, basically treating him like a pet - and he has basically been taught that he needs to be more accommodating of NT children, so just accepts them dragging him around because he thinks that's what friendship is.

PS - your DS sounds lovely. One of the cruellest things about the lack of specialist provision is that autistic children don't necessarily meet anyone "like" them with whom they might click. Cheesy but profoundly autistic children instinctively seem to "get" each other when they meet.

I try not to label any child as 'naughty', NT or ND...

@Deguster . I know the mother of my DC's little friend worries about that too and my heart goes out to you and everyone else who has to help their children navigate this. It is so tricky. I can already see the issues ahead for this little boy in terms of socal interaction and his lovely sweet nature being taken advantage of. He is just so accommodating to other children, especially when he finds them overwhelming, that it is hard for him to understand that he is entitled to have personal boundaries in the way that my NT 4yo already does (for example, in not immediately handing over a treat like a biscuit or sweet to my DC when he does actually want it just because my DC asks for it).

Exactly @Goldbar - instead of supporting the autistic children to adjust, what they often infer is that any NT behaviour is "normal" and has to be accepted. DS has waist-length, very beautiful hair because he cannot tolerate the hairdresser (noise, people, physical contact - ugh!) He feels that he "has" to let the girls play with his hair - and he comes home with ornate french plaits and space buns - because his place is to accommodate other people's strange (to him) expectations while ignoring his own needs. Tolerance really should go both ways, especially with young children, all of whom need a bit of domestication!

And he's also been biffed at school - the response I get from teachers is pretty much "they're at primary school - it's not uncommon and they'll learn". Until its my DS doing the biffing when suddenly it's a Massive Deal because autistic.

I also apologise because I meant to tag @PollyEsther in my reply to her post.

@Deguster . Yes, I guessed it was another post you meant to tag but didn't want to not reply... I can imagine how difficult it is to deal with all that "superpower" rubbish when you have a real, distressed child to care for. I absolutely agree that tolerance and education are needed both ways. It helps because we've known my DC's friend since he was a baby, but DC is aware that there are certain games his friend likes to play and certain things he doesn't like (and also that taking his sweets, toys or other treats just because he says ok is absolutely not on...). ND children should absolutely be encouraged and helped to have appropriate personal boundaries and imo schools should be on the ball to make sure that other children don't infringe these boundaries just because some ND children may not be able to speak up for themselves effectively.