Are all "naughty" children actually neurodivergent?

[Ponderingthemeaningoflife]

As the subject asks. The children in my life (friends, family, DC school peers, colleagues' children) fall into two camps - the ones who can be stubborn at home, but tend to behave fabulously for anyone who isn't their parents including at school.

And those who are challenging in many settings, don't like to conform, oppositional. So many of these are being referred for ADHD/Autism after a year or two at school, mine included.

Does anyone have any actual experience of "naughty" children (by naughty I mean doesn't do what they're asked, refusal to comply, cheeky, rude, attitude) who did eventually grow out of it?

I think school and society is set up for the 'normal' (for want of a better word) individual and that if you don't fall into that category people label you and say you are disruptive or whatever, when in fact it's often just being different. Maybe neurodiversity, maybe low or high IQ, maybe just how you're wired. We don't do well as a society for anyone that doesn't 'fit in', that's for sure, and it's really sad.

I have ADHD and I was very “good” at school. Once got told off in front of the class for distractedly doodling on my desk and I cried. The teacher ended up apologising to me. I was never naughty I just lacked concentration and focus but I don’t class that as bad behaviour.

Not sure I like the term naughty as it’s very subjective. There’s so many environmental and biological factors involved in any persons behaviour and personality that I think your question is too simplistic.

I'm not sure this is correct. Some ND children can mask up to a point at school, but as soon as they're out (often with people/in a place where they feel safe) they will melt down.

I think many parents of ND children know how to parent, but it's really tricky getting the right approach. All kids are different and respond to different things in different ways. Parenting my NT 12yo is completely different to parenting my ND 6yo. I'm sure many people judge me when he's having a meltdown/"playing up" in public, but I know what strategies make it worse so have learned to respond accordingly.

My nephew on dh side was like this. Feral, unbearable to be around and I refused for them to visit our home so we only saw them at theirs. If they wanted their place trashed then great for them, we weren't allowing that at ours. He is now 14 and such a lovely boy! He displays none of what a horror he was, so he was just naughty. My friend has a dd who says the same of her own dd.

I hate this attitude ,just because your autistic child doesn't display the behaviours that this child does doesn't mean this child is being naughty
You have met onevperson with autism ,you have met one person with autism etc .

I find the question offensive and disabilist.

Well some people do, I’m on a page on Facebook for parents with autistic children and often see posts like this, someone said the other day that no one will believe her child is autistic so she “just has to put up with getting hit and house being smashed up”
Like isn’t there a chance the child is just naughty and has no discipline? It always has to be that they are ND

I work with older children who've been excluded from school. Some do have varying degrees of SEN, often undiagnosed for far too long and contributing to their behaviour, but the one thing absolutely all have in common is significant, often multiple trauma.

So you can’t be autistic and be naughty or a bully as well? My son is scared to go to school because of him and dropped out of football club because he was there

Agree, sometime the label should be bad parenting and lack of attention and discipline.

Not all naughty children are neurodivergent.

Not all neurodivergent children are naughty.

Some neurodivergent children are naughty in ways that aren't actually a result of their neurodivergence. An autistic child might have a tantrum because of sensory overload in a busy place, because of their autism. But the same autistic child might also sometimes be naughty in exactly the same way that an NT child might.

Btw to clarify the child was not diagnosed as no professionals would believe her when she said she thought the child has autism.

A lot of kids who were branded naughty before were actually neurodiverse, traumatised, child carers, or those living in poverty and destitution. I don't think it's a bad thing that now when a child behaves badly schools actually question whether there is a root cause, because all behaviour is communication, and if a child is behaving badly there often is an unmet need the child is trying to communicate. I remember kids branded naughty growing up who as adults found out they had a hearing issue or should have worn glasses or were abused at home and couldn't say, or had dyslexia or dyspraxia and nobody noticed. Then there are all the adult adhd and autism diagnoses and it makes me think that actually there are next to no kids who just chose to behave badly, just kids who didn't know how to show their distress or ask for help in any other way

I remember at my school lots of teachers would say kids were 'attention seeking' and that pisses me off because one of those kids I knew was being neglected and had an addict mum and abusive dad and would self harm, and another had been sexually abused (school did nothing) by another student and was bulimic. Lots of other attention seeking/ badly behaved troubled kids were actually being abused by a teacher at that school as well. So these were traumatised kids, not bad ones. They were desperately trying to express their distress and get some help, not so called attention seeking.

I'm glad we have taken a few small steps in the right direction.

I think there is always a reason for 'naughty' behaviour. That reason could be that they are young and haven't learned yet. In older children who don't 'grow out of it' it could be SEN, but could also be adverse experience or parenting issues.

For what it's worth my autistic DS is rule obsessed, so doesn't fit the stereotypical naughty child profile at all. I don't agree at all with the coupling of 'naughty' and SEN which seems to happen. The two groups often overlap, but are completely different.

Same, which makes it nigh on impossible to 'discipline' him.

No. Many children struggle with behaviour due to ASD and ADHD, sure. Some have had traumatic experience which will impact behaviour too.
Many children with ASD and ADHD don’t display difficult behaviour at all. But they struggle inwardly.
But a lot of children are also simply spoilt little shits (not their fault). They don’t grow out of it if their parents don’t change because why should they, they rule the roost and they’ve been conditioned to feel they are more important than everyone else and then are massively lacking in empathy for others. Parents often mean well, but clueless parenting can cause a lot of behavioural problems.

My ND children are quite capable of being naughty.. this is not part of their neurodiversity.. this is part of them being kids.. they also show behaviours that might be perceived as naughty but are actually complete overwhelm from sensory overload and anxiety.... the key is working out which is which, this can be difficult and you feel really shit when you judge it wrong.

Some children are raised with poor boundaries/ ineffective parenting/ no respect.

Some children have trauma or poor role models.

Some children's personalities are more awkward but without falling into being neurodiverse.

Some children can have difficult behaviour due to unrecognised neurodiversity.

There are also many wonderful neurodiverse children whose behaviour is not problematic within society.

Some adults/ systems are poor at reading/ managing behaviour and aggravate it because it's not one size fits all.

DS is a masker. In 7 years of primary school, I've been contacted once, early in yR about behaviour. I get the overwhelm being unleashed at home. His actual level of "naughtiness" is pretty similar to his NT sibling. His behaviour in school is better than average.

I think we’ve come a long way in awareness of disorders that affect children (I’m a ND adult who went under the radar as a kid). The problem is that it may have tipped too far in the other direction.

Anecdotal obviously but I have friends who are teachers and over the last ten years, the number of kids with SEN in their classes has gone from 1 in 5 to nearly 4 in 5. That includes kids with a diagnosis (minority) and kids with parents who are pursuing one. I struggle to believe that in ten years we’ve gone to the majority of kids now having SEN, but this is apparently the experience of my friends in various schools in the area.

In my experience of being neurodivergent at school the naughty children were more likely to be NT because they knew the rules, knew how to bend them and when messing about would be seen as cool/funny by their peers. I was terrified of breaking a rule, I've never not done my homework or worn my uniform incorrectly. I had no idea what rules could be bent and why my behaviour within the rules was 'weird' when their behavior broke the rules but half the time even the teacher would end up laughing or letting them off. I find similar with my DD who is in the process of being assessed for ND. She is so good, she tries so hard to please the teachers, she can't read or write but she is so proud of winning the 'tidying up' award on a regular basis. Other kids run rings round her and their naughty behaviour is often social and goes under the radar of the teachers

Thankfully schools have a responsibility to look into why students might be struggling to engage. Often it's boredom sometimes it's difficulty being able to concentrate or the way they learn is different This doesn't make them naughty. Often sensory seeking behaviour is out of their control as is the need to move fiddle and even talk or stare out of a window. Luckily we are bit more enlightened and don't label them naughty. It's about helping the child understand their behaviour and adopt learning strategies.

Not just throw them on the scrap heap if they don't conform to "normal behavioural expectations".

Personally I think the whole way we expect students to learn is far too narrow which impacts the behaviour.

I think more people are neurodivergent than we think.
Many ND children are not naughty (I wasn't and my sons aren't).
If a child behaves impeccably at school and/or with other people, and then explode when they come home, they were probably masking. (Look up the coke bottle effect as well). Masking for a long time causes burn out.
It sounds like you're talking about ODD and PDA rather than autism in general.

I am absolutely wondering if my DS is the way he is because of my parenting. I try very hard but feel I am either too soft, too strict, not enough boundaries, too nit picky. Or I just haven't earned his respect.

My reason for pushing on with a referral for him is because it's been consistent, "low level" behaviour since he was 3. He is 6, so that's half his life now. And he is like it at school too, he just doesn't seem to be like the other children (he will be the only child in his class making a fuss about something, or asking why he has to comply with a relatively straight forward request). He doesn't have obvious meltdowns, however I know it's not always clear cut and can show as shutting off or shutting down. In a group of children in a social setting, he's usually the one not listening to his parents/the person in charge. There are little things too which I pick up on because I'm hyper sensitive to it. He is naturally a reserved child, and the behaviour doesn't match up.

To clarify I don't think ND children are always naughty, a few friends have boys diagnosed with autism. It's the ones who are perhaps labelled as naughty, because their bad behaviour is low level, which are harder to spot.

When does it stop being neurodivergent and start being just different, which after all we all are. If a large proportion of the population are neurodivergent, doesn't that just mean a different NT?

Usually naughty children are naughty for a reason - whether that’s an undiagnosed SEND or some form of trauma.
(It’s also surprising how many SEND is caused by trauma)

Even ones who are naughty to get attention are doing it for a reason if you look behind the scenes.

I have always worked in mainstream schools and then moved to working with children with SEND and SEMH and it is shocking that my students now are treated much more as individuals and are allowed movement, brain and sensory breaks throughout the lesson, yet in mainstream they’re expected to sit still and concentrate all day.

If a mainstream student misbehaves they are seen as naughty whereas an SEND student is given much more understanding.

Many of my mainstream students could easily be in my SEND class but they just don’t have an EHCP and likewise with my SEND students many of which are very mainstream and will do mainstream lessons with no issues.

I now treat every mainstream student like my SEND students as I know many are undiagnosed and the techniques used for SEND children are just as effective for mainstream students.

It’s just much harder as a teacher of 30+ when SEND classes are less than 10.
I believe class sizes in mainstream should be made much smaller.