Abortion is fine but euthanasia isn't??

[Mommabear20]

With all the discussion on abortion at the moment, and the clear view from the majority is people that they're a good thing, AIBU to wonder why we still don't allow for legal euthanasia of terminally ill people in this country (England)?

My personal view on abortion is that is a terrible practise that makes me terrible sad to think about and a resource I would never use, BUT that it should be legal for woman whose views differ to mine, to allow them to make their own decisions about their bodies and lives.

It baffles me then, to think that while we are fighting for woman's rights on this subject, that we aren't also fighting for the rights of every person who is or will suffer terribly as a result of terminal illnesses, not to mention the trauma for their families who have to watch them deteriorate in health knowing that it's only going to get worse and often times won't get to be there with them at the end.

Would you be in agreement to make euthanasia legal?

Me too.

The only issue is greedy family members encouraging elderly parents/relatives to take the option when they aren’t ready. Why can’t we make these decisions when we are fairly young, sound of mind etc. I’m in my forties, why can’t I make the decision now that if I have dementia or cancer when I’m older that I don’t want to suffer. If I don’t know who I am, where I am, if I’m in pain if I can’t swallow, can’t move and won’t recover then I want it to end peacefully.

We are an uncivilised and barbaric society whilst we continue to make terminally ill people hold on until their bodies collapse.its in humane.

It's wicked.

We are also uncivilised whilst we continue to control women's birth experience.
Women should be offered a range of options including ELC at birth.

You have a very narrow minded view on abortion. I have had 11 miscarriages and have had to use abortion medication numerous times when the pregnancy wouldn't come away alone. You never know whether you will have to use it. These were pregnancies I desperately wanted

@Suzi888

When someone is dying of cancer,no amount of pressuring relatives can convince a doctor of anything.
The medic's will see they are at the ends.

The medic's can ask

And I agree,I want to legally make that choice now.
That doesn't mean it would automatically happen but I'd like to legally say now especially in the case of dementia, when I don't recognise my family and can't self care...

End me !! Please!!

I am pro choice, not because I think abortion is a good thing, but that I think it is necessary.

I'm against euthanasia. I do really feel for people who are suffering with terminal illnesses, but I think that legalising euthanasia will cause more harm than good overall.
It will definitely be abused. There are massive financial gains to be made, not just by family members who stand to inherit, but it will also save the NHS massive amounts of money. So if they introduce it with strict rules, these will gradually get challenged and chipped away at.

There will be so much pressure put on people not just from family members, but also from the health service and society as a whole. You can see from some of the replies here that there is already a perception that the morally right thing to do is to prevent yourself from becoming a 'burden'. There is a whiff of 'useless eaters' off it.

In some countries, euthanasia is allowed on mental health grounds. As someone who has had to repeatedly present at A&E with a suicidal family member, this absolutely terrifies me. Said family member has now recovered and is glad that he didn't end his life.
If assisted dying was legal for mental health issues, you would have to hide mentally ill family members from the health services instead of seeking help for them.

Canada only introduced assisted dying in 2015 with strict rules. Five years later they removed the requirement for the condition to be terminal and now they are looking to introduce it for mental health conditions.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-is-canada-euthanising-the-poor-

@LookingGlassMilk the Netherlands is one of those countries where euthanasia is legal on mental health grounds. And it is not as simple as rocking up at A&E feeling suicidal and being handed some suicide pills - that is a groteque misrepresentation of how the system works. And it does work. In the (rare) cases where euthanasia has been granted on mental health grounds, the people involved had been suffering without relief for decades. How long do you think we should torture people for before we let them die? Because that is what you are advocating.

No system can be 100% perfect - but in the UK the system is 100% imperfect with no end to suffering allowed for human beings.

@Laiste I'm glad your mother is doing well and enjoying life.

However your post highlights the widespread lack of understanding around death and dying and end of life care.

This is in no way a critism of you, but a critism of british society which still sees talking about death as a massive taboo, the health system that doesn't afford the time for proper discusions, and to a lesser extent individual health practioners who can become complacent about the significance and impact of what they are saying and therefore how much is being taken in and understood.
Your mother won't have had a DNR, as the correct term is 'Do not attempt Cardio Pulmonary Resusitation' (DNACPR), DNR or do not resusitate is bad terminology as in medicine we use the term to resusitate to cover far more than CPR, including for example fluid resusitation in shocked (hyopvolemic, anaphlaxis, hypothermic) patients. The 'Resusitation' Room in A&E is a busy place often full completely of patients who are concious throughout their stay. In order to stop this level of care an order not to treat would be required. These do exist in the form of a 'Treatment escalation plan' (TEP), and are an important documement in achieving a dignified death, but are DNACPR is literally just that, it does not mean do not treat only to not perform CPR. Also Doctors and certain HCPs (Paramedics) can make the decision to stop or not start CPR based on the obvious futility of CPR in relation to the patients condition, and in the best interest of the patient, regardless of whether or not DNACPR has been completed.

Also, many people misunderstand what CPR and defibrillation is and what it's indications and limitations are. Performing CPR on someone in cardiac arrest secondary to sepsis will almost certainly be futile, and defibrillation will not be indicated as they will go into a pulseless electrical activity (PEA) where the electrical signals in the heart still continue but no blood circulates, and from that they will progress into flat line (Asystole) both of which are non-shockable rhythms. Withholding CPR in the situations is abosolutely the right thing to do, and is a way of giving the patient dignity in their very final moments.
I blame the media, casualty and also Keifer Sutherland in particular, for the mis-representation of CPR and and defibrillation, and a public health campaign of what it actual is and can do is much needed.

I think even without the legalistion of euthanasia (which I passionately agree with) that a long overdue public education campaign on death and dying, and lasting power of attorny etc is needed to encourage families to have evidence based, open conversations and enable them to feel empowered to state their wishes. This would help many more people achieve a better death, without needing euthanasia. But Euthanasia is desperately needed to improve the quality of life and death in patients who are unfortunate enough to develop a neurodegenarative disease.

@EgonSpengler2020 - thank you for taking the time to explain all that. That is a lot to take in for a non medically trained person. I will re-read it, because it's interesting and important. I wonder though, as bad as it sounds, if that is why full explanation is not attempted 'in the moment', if that makes sense? As much as in a perfect world there should be the time and resources to allow everyone to understand the in's and out's every time, a significant majority of stressed upset tired relatives just wouldn't get it faced with all that info.

Re: the actual patient - i don't know if my mother would have listened for that long! I can imagine her saying '' .... oh god enough. Just don't bring me back if i start to peg out ok?!''

When you get to snatch what you know is only going to be a 2/3/4/5 min chat with a doctor on a hospital ward these days you ask the basics as clearly as poss. and want pretty concise answers in return in order to get through more than one thing.

On a lighter note ''I blame the media, casualty and also Keifer Sutherland in particular'' made me actually chuckle. What is it he's done specifically? 🤔😆

It really annoys me that people bring a financial element into the argument against euthanasia and presume everyone’s families are trying to kill them off for their money. Families who have often cared for the relatives for years and sacrificed everything. There is always this blanket presumption of greed as a motivator. We are talking about a persons right to choose themselves, and that their families respect that choice when the time comes. As it is there is no choice. For anyone.

I think if you believe that mental illness is illness, it follows that some will be fully treatable, and the person will make a full recovery, some will be treatable to a reasonable or good quality of life, and some will not be treatable, and the person has no realistic prospect of relief from suffering. Exactly how you'd administer this system though is probably the most difficult question surrounding euthanasia.

I, personally, don't think the two (pro-life and pro-euthanasia) can be compared.

My Uncle lived in the Netherlands and had a euthanasia injection last year. As LookingGlassMilk says, it was very tightly regulated. He met with many doctors and physicians who discussed everything with him and his mental health was looked at closely, he was asked the morning of his injection if he was still sure. He had the injection at his own home, in his own bed with his partner by his side.

It was heartbreaking knowing exactly the date and time that he would die but it was the right thing to do, he had no quality of life, his partner was his permanent carer, his life was deteriorating every day, he had lived a long, healthy life and in his mid 90s was depressed, unable to walk properly and just slept or picked at food. He made the decision after a lot of discussion not only with the health professionals but also his partner and, sad though it was, it was the best thing to do.

I am wholeheartedly in support of the same thing being available here. Having seen friends whose parents have spent years with dementia, just wasting away to nothing, a shell of a person with no movement or recognition of what is going on I think, like we do with our pets, euthanisia, under the correct procedures (as in The Netherlands) should definitely be made legal.

@iloveeverykindofcat in terms of mental ill health one would think a person's medical records would go a long way towards evidencing that the person's suffering was prolonged, unbearable and unlikely to be resolved. And of course at the point of taking the decision and the point where the death actually happens, there must be capacity, which can be assessed. It's not that difficult, it just has to be set out meticulously and adhered to.

@PushkaMcgee it was LookingGlassMilk who was going on about 'the slippery slope' and saying euthanasia shouldn't be legalised, not me.

Apologies @pointythings I highlighted the wrong poster

I agree with euthanasia in principle. What concerns me greatly is society's attitude to the elderly.

I would not be confident that it would not be used to get rid of those "burdensome" old people who are using NHS resources.

It is not so much the greedy relative scenario but the perception that the elderly are a drain on the health service that would make me uncomfortable.

It's a very emotive issue and whilst I do believe that anyone should have the right to end their own life if they want to, the selfish nature of much of our society makes me uneasy about introducing euthanasia.

A fetus is a potential life, not a life.
As someone who's had a medical abortion, you're lucky you've never had to make the choice between a termination of a pregancy or your own life.

Euthanasia allows for abuse to people not sound of mind. The guidelines need to be airtight.

The world of elderly finical abuse is a scary place and Euthanasia could really truly allow many people to be euthanized without the capacity to say if that is what they want.
I belive dying with dignity and Euthanasia is a terrific thing if people don't use it for nefarious reasons, however people are scum when it comes to money, so I'm on the fence for that reason.

I am pro-choice although wouldn't personally have an abortion under most circumstances (this is easy for me to say though as an infertile woman), I still will defend the right for women to make the choice for themselves.

I am also pro-euthanasia, but with strict regulation.

I would not however say euthanasia is in any way comparable to suicide. My dad died by suicide last year. His was perhaps a 'rational suicide' although still ultimately rooted in mental health difficulties. But it has utterly destroyed me. The shock of that phone call, the fact I did not get the chance to say goodbye, that he died alone hanging from a bannister staring at a wall (which is far more brutal than assisted dying at Dignitas), the fact I will never get the image of his dead distorted face at the funeral home out of my head and that is all I can see now when I think about him. The only saving grace is I wasn't the one to find him. Grief from suicide is like no other form of grief, although I have learned to live with it I will never get over it. It has made me more sure that euthanasia should be legal and respected.

@absolutenightmare That must have been terrible for you and I'm sorry you had to go through it. I see precisely how it made you more sure euthanasia should be legal - in the story I told earlier, the difference is of course that our old vet, being a vet who owned his own practice, had precisely the means and knowledge to die in his own bed at the time of his choosing, which he did.

I am in favour of both abortion and euthanasia if that's any help?

Most people I know are in favour of both. I think the general feeling is people deserve at least the same amount of dignity and consideration that we give our dogs!

I don't see how euthanasia would be properly regulated, as many think it would once the Tory's remove the human rights act. Couple that with the immediate DNR placed on people who had learning difficulties during Covid, I don't see how we'd guarantee protection for disabled people. I listened to the parents of a young woman who had down syndrome and Covid and had little intervention, so died. She was 26, doing voluntary work, going dancing, doing gymnastics etc. They were one of many relatives of young disabled people who did feel bitterness that doctors were fighting to keep 70+ year olds alive and not their relatives in their 20's.
It took Craig Phillips going on Big Brother to get legalisation changed around transplants for people who have downs syndrome.
I do believe in people leaving a living will stating that they don't want forced feeding etc if they develop certain conditions. I've watched a friend go through aggressive MS and relatives through dementia. I respected and agreed with my Mother's DNR. I'm just unsure about giving direct powers to doctors.

Re the death sentence, very few people who kill children get convicted of murder. Those who would get the death sentence aren't the people who the public think shouldn't exist.

I think euthanasia could be regulated if it is something you decide in advance when you have full capacity. Apply for a license which is renewed every year at a GPs surgery alone, until you start to decline. You could specify at what point you would want to be euthanised, eg. when you are unable to communicate or swallow or when you no longer recognise family rather than currently having to whisk yourself off to Switzerland while you are still physically capable of the journey (some would argue this is too early in a progressive degenerative illness). The choice would be there but you would have to show a long term commitment to it.

While I’m very sorry your Nan went through this, this is exactly why I have concerns about euthanasia. She was in no position at this stage to make the decision for herself, any decision would have come from her family. It’s impossible to know what she would gave wanted as she couldn’t tell you. Had she been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s and then taken the decision while she still had her faculties then it’s her choice.

I’ve seen my own grandparent go through this so I’m honestly not unsympathetic, in fact I’ve told my dh that if I was to be diagnosed with Alzheimer’s in the future I will be taking myself off to Dignitas asap so they don’t have to see me like that. But this isn’t a decision that I would feel comfortable taking on behalf of someone else.

I think the debate should not start with euthanasia tbh.

In terms of dignity in death, we could do a lot if we had more of a debate about simply being more honest and upfront about quality of life and prolonged medical intervention.

I think we have a tendency to consider medical intervention in all circumstances as the right course of action. I don't think we have enough of a conversation about being brave enough to say this isn't going to get better and instead having better palliative care.

'Having more time' isn't necessarily a good thing for everyone if they have lost dignity.

It troubles me that we so often start the conversation about this topic with euthanasia, rather than the a wider topic about dignity in death.

I know this thread OP is about comparing abortion to euthanasia, but that for me doesn't work precisely because its not a good comparison.

Woman have abortions to save their lives or to perserve their health. They have them to ensure the economic survival of others. They have them to escape abusive relationships. They have them because the baby is incompatible with life.

Notably we talk about ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies as part of the topic.

Why do people want euthanasia? This is a fundamental question for me. Especially if we aren't having the conversation about why is it needed rather than better palliative care pathways and better understanding of when to discontinue medical care to prolong life at all costs, particularly invasive medical care.

The conversation about euthanasia always must include cost and benefits to others...

That could mean that people who would recover wouldn't be helped. After all, it's what they want, let them get on with it - and it would save the NHS and other organisations a lot of money.

Saving money and shrugging one's shoulders 'Oh, well, your choice' would be the worst possible outcome for a huge number of unwell people who could recover, their families, loved ones and society. And it would give the message to other people with depression that nobody cares/they should also end their lives and stop beating about the bush with it. Which would also filter down to children.

Absolutely. Because as a society we make death such a taboo the focus is currently on quantity of life and the quality is completely dismissed. I don’t fear death at all, I fear being kept alive in a state I wouldn’t want to be.

Having seen elder relatives being aggressively treated for many medical conditions with great suffering to keep them going into their late 90s it isn’t something I respect or would want for myself.

I will be taking myself off to Dignitas asap
It's not that easy - average cost is around 11K for a UK traveller. I'm banking on euthanasia being legal in the UK by the time I get to the age when the women in my family get major dementia. If not, I'll have to make my own plans when I get the diagnosis, with a time limit - which is bad, because it means I might get less quality time out of my life than I otherwise would have, and have to be incredibly careful not to incriminate anyone else. But I won't die like my grandmother did. Absolutely not. Even if I have to cut my life short to avoid it.