Abortion is fine but euthanasia isn't??

[Mommabear20]

With all the discussion on abortion at the moment, and the clear view from the majority is people that they're a good thing, AIBU to wonder why we still don't allow for legal euthanasia of terminally ill people in this country (England)?

My personal view on abortion is that is a terrible practise that makes me terrible sad to think about and a resource I would never use, BUT that it should be legal for woman whose views differ to mine, to allow them to make their own decisions about their bodies and lives.

It baffles me then, to think that while we are fighting for woman's rights on this subject, that we aren't also fighting for the rights of every person who is or will suffer terribly as a result of terminal illnesses, not to mention the trauma for their families who have to watch them deteriorate in health knowing that it's only going to get worse and often times won't get to be there with them at the end.

Would you be in agreement to make euthanasia legal?

I've c&p'd this from The World Population Review website just because i thought it was interesting. Personally i knew about Switzerland, but honestly didn't know about anywhere else's policies. Particularly i'm surprised about the USA tbh.

''In many countries, euthanasia is illegal and can result in a murder conviction. However, there are some countries in which it is legal under stringent conditions.

• Switzerland has perhaps the least-regulated laws dealing with euthanasia, as a diagnosis is not required by the physician administering the lethal medication, and there is no age limit. Nevertheless, euthanasia is not allowed if the person advocating for doctor-assisted suicide stands to gain anything, such as an inheritance, from the person’s death.

• Euthanasia is legal in Belgium for someone who is in unbearable suffering and will not recover. If that person is not terminally ill, then a one-month waiting period is required. There is no age regulation for those requesting euthanasia, but for a child to be considered, he or she must have a terminal illness.

• In the Netherlands, someone who is in chronic pain and will not recover can request euthanasia, even if he or she is not terminally ill. However, the physician involved must consult with at least one independent physician to ensure that the patient meets the criteria for euthanasia. Children as young as 12 can request euthanasia, but they must have parental permission.

• Luxembourg, Canada, Australia, and Colombia allow euthanasia for adults who are in unbearable suffering and who will die from their condition. In Australia, a doctor cannot bring up the prospect of euthanasia; the patient must explicitly request it – three times.

• There are a few states in the United States in which euthanasia is now legal for patients who are terminally ill.

• In France, euthanasia is not permitted, but patients can request to be heavily sedated until they die.''

Abortion and euthanasia are two completely different things.

Suicide is a completely different matter again and should not be grouped in with euthanasia.

I'm neither for or against euthanasia, if it were to be legalised there would need to be stringent rules and checks.

It's nothing whatsoever like abortion. A woman should have the choice to end a pregnancy for any reason that she sees fit. You and I don't have to agree with her reasons and it's not up to us to decide whether she is deserving enough. She is the only one who is affected and it's her choice.

It would be interesting to know how those above countries have coped with the concerns we have here.

I absolutely do not want to end my life with my kids having to wipe my arse and not knowing who my partner is. I don't want that for me, my partner or my children and I 100% support assisted dying. I agree though that safeguarding, checks and rigorous guidelines must be in place to stop unscrupulous practice.

Oh look. More regressive, sexist, internalised misogyny.

Bearing in mind a woman can only get pregnant once a year, and a man could impregnate a different woman every single day of that year, I'd say you need to have a think about why you're so focused on women 'shutting their legs' and not 'men need to keep it in their pants' (yes I know that's not what you said, but that was the implication).

Such a bloody tedious attitude.

@HelloAllll why do they? Without getting into all the ins and outs and various scenarios of why women become pregnant.

Why do you say that women need to start taking more responsibility? In what way does a woman having an abortion affect you?

Why is a genuine contraceptive failure more deserving than a careless mistake? Does the careless person deserve to be punished with a forced pregnancy regardless of the circumstances?

Do you apply that to other aspect of life? Are you fat, do you smoke, eat unhealthy food, drink alcohol, have you ever done something in your life that is less than 100% perfect that has resulted in you needing medicine or treatment?

There used to be strict rules for Abortion but these lapse, there was a case not so long ago where doctors at the hospital left pre-signed forms with reception so anyone could have an abortion without seeing them.

If we allow euthanasia with controls we'll see the controls slip and over time it'll be easier and more acceptable.

Down the road...your daughter tried to commit suicide Mrs B we'll send a paramedic around to help make it successful.

Most people do think euthanasia should be legal. This thread isn't a gotcha.

I have had an abortion (for a medical reason), and believe other women should be able to have an abortion for whatever reason they so wish.

I also being in euthanasia, and think it will be introduced in the next 10/15 years. We have an aging population that are living far too long and costing far too much money. If you are in a care home/ nursing home, with no memory, or quality of life, what's the point of living.

I am pro-choice and pro-euthanasia, I think there is a huge overlap with these beliefs (it pretty much divides down the religion line) but I do think the comparison is poor.

The most compelling argument I see for abortion is that nobody should be forced to use their body to keep another person/foetus alive. If somebody would die without your kidney, then you can give them one if you choose to, but you don't have to do so, legally. Abortion is the same in that respect. The only reason that abortion is more contentious is that we are quite happy using women's bodies and have a horribly history of blaming women for the consequences of sex and wanting them punished.

It's why we allow people to travel to low income countries for surrogacy but not for organ harvesting.

@CandyLeBonBon it's so fucking tedious isn't it? It's never the fault of a man though is it? It's those immoral women.

Yeah, I think euthanasia should be allowed, particularly after watching a family member die slowly and painfully from cancer and attempting (and failing) to take their own life to end their suffering. And I support abortion too.

No ‘gotcha’ here I’m afraid.

Yep. I honestly despair. These attitude are still so ingrained. Immoral women having sex and not taking responsibility for their actions. I'm so very very tired of it. Anyone who thinks feminism has done its job needs to read this shit coming from OTHER WOMEN to realise we've got such a long way to go.

So the (massively oversimplified here obvs.) safeguarding checks other countries seem to have are:

• euthanasia is not allowed if the person advocating for the patient stands to gain anything, such as an inheritance, from the person’s death.

• If the patient is not terminally ill, then a one-month waiting period is required. For a child to be considered, he or she must have a terminal illness.

• The physician involved must consult with at least one independent physician to ensure that the patient meets the criteria for euthanasia. Children as young as 12 can request euthanasia, but they must have parental permission.

• A doctor cannot bring up the prospect of euthanasia; the patient must explicitly request it – three times

So it's doable. I wonder why it's taking us so long to catch up?

There's a big difference between abortion and euthanasia. Abortion is only permitted before the foetus is viable to survive by itself.
A living person is a completely different scenario.
I dont like the idea of anyone suffering, waiting to die.
However euthanasia is complicated and can be open to abuse.
I think doctors should make patients as comfortable as possible with medication, including letting them slip away, but there's a line between that and seeking an earlier death.
One case that stays with me was a girl in her early twenties with anorexia being allowed euthanasia, I can't remember the country now, possibly Scandinavia or Holland, My teenage daughter was seriously ill with anorexia at the time and would have definitely said she wanted to die but 4 years on , she is well and happy and is at university.
So it's a very complicated with lots of safeguarding issues.

@CandyLeBonBon + @Allnostalgic i agree with both of you totally but let's treat that post with the contempt it deserves and not dignify it by responding.

It's heartening to see it's the only one of it's kind here and that the majority have just scrolled on by :)

I am fully in favour of abortion on demand and of assisted suicide. I'm Dutch, my grandmother had an assisted suicide . She was fully able to advocate for herself, her condition was purely physical and she was in control of the process. She passed peacefully with her family around us.

She did leave a very small inheritance - about £600 for all her family members still living, with a request to spend it on 'something frivolous'. Nobody pressured her into anything.

The guidelines in the Netherlands work well.

If you can't see the difference then you'e being obtuse.

From what I've read, it seems that one of the important reasons it's not yet is because it would leave the door open for people to take advantage/bump off relatives they no longer want to care for, or potentially for older people who don't actually want to die but feel like they're a nuisance to say yes to going ahead with it.

But if it can regulated properly absolutely we should allow it. I am 100% in favour of euthanasia. It baffles me that I could give my dog a respectful end and stop his suffering when he was completely miserable, and yet, god forbid, I won't be able to help my mum in the same way.

@pointythings that's really interesting to hear your experience/encouraging too.

If you don't mind me asking, how ill was your grandmother when she chose to go ahead with assisted suicide? Did she have a terminal condition or was it just one that made her life not very pleasant any more?

I think a really interesting and tricky line for regulators would be when to allow it to go ahead to make sure they didn't facilitate suicide of younger people that should be given mental health support instead.

Do you know much about what restrictions/rules are in the Netherlands? e.g. what age can you do it, do you have to have a terminal illness etc?

I am pro choice and cautiously pro voluntary euthanasia (my thoughts on that have changed over the years) but I did find the case of Gill Pharaoh sad and disturbing.

www.itv.com/news/2015-08-03/gill-paraoh-healthy-nurse-75-ends-life-at-swiss-suicide-clinic-because-she-did-not-want-to-become-hobbling-old-lady

I've just joined.

There is a current thread on MN:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/guest_posts/4575053-guest-post-im-terminally-ill-and-want-to-die-on-my-own-terms

With the exception of the odd religious person pretty much everyone I've ever spoken too about the subject would be in favour of some sort of assisted dying/ euthanasia. So many people have watched loved ones die slow, lingering deaths where they are just shells of their former selves.

I couldn't allow my dog to suffer like that so why is it ok for a person?

I'm also pro-choice.

@CounsellorTroi

Why do you find it sad? I would love to be able to decide when I die. I think it is a basic right.

She was very lucky and being a nurse, she knew exactly what she wanted to avoid in later life.

@CounsellorTroi

That story gives me so much hope. It does not make me sad at all.