To worry that no state, non-selective secondary schools are good enough.

[SecondarySnob]

I know I am BU. I know there will be loads of people who send their kids to the local comp and their kids do fine and get good results and aren't exposed to hideous language and behaviour daily.

But.

I can't see how that could happen having researched all of the local schools.

Oldest DD is 9yo. So this reality is suddenly hitting me.

We're in a non-Grammar area. (DH and I grew up in a different county and went to grammars)

There's a girls grammar 10 miles away which has its own entrance exam so that's where I'm keeping my fingers crossed for her.

I'm also trying to work out how we can afford private school.

Because I've looked at results, spoken to friends who work in local comps, had them kids pass me when out and about, seen them walking to and from school, seen posts on local Facebook pages.

And I just can't see how my DD would get through 5 years at any of them and achieve what she's capable of and come out happy and confident like she deserves to be.

I don't want her to get straight A*s but I do want her to feel comfortable and supported enough to achieve the best she can.

I know this will get flamed by most. As it sounds horribly horribly snobby. I guess my background of going to a school that expected a lot of us means I was sheltered from the reality of a lot of teenage life.

But I'm hoping there are some mums out there like me who are worried at how secondary schools are.

And if so how did you make it work for your kids? Private education? Moving house?

Follow your daughter's reaction on this, not preconceived ideas from you and your husband. I do get this, when we were looking at secondaries for Yr 6 DS, our catchment secondary was in special measures and dying on its arse. We looked at it, as that's the one e'd have been stuck applying for as our last resort. We knew we didn't want it. We then saw an out of area school, DS was a different child as he looked around. It had Ofsted "requires improvement" at the time but it's feel and ethos was light years away. DS (now Yr 8 ) has loved it there.

Please don't apply for a school 10 miles away for your DD. She won't thank you for a 20 mile round trip every day, however good the school is, and her friends will be too far away to visit after school.

There have been No Grammar schools in my town and surrounding towns since the 1970,s ,kids seem to do fine
There have been some really shit schools in my area ,which became academy's, there were a few rocky years but overall they appear to be improving and turning out consistently good and improving results.

My best friend went to a grammar, she was pregnant at 15 and took a lot of drugs and didn’t go to University until later in life. She’s done very well now but it was hard.
I went to the local comp and got good results and did the conventional a levels/uni/good job route. I was much better behaved (but no saint).

The school is not the biggest factor on how children turn out.

aren't exposed to hideous language and behaviour daily.

Do you think that they wouldn't be exposed to these things at a grammar school or an independent school?

I went to private single sex school. A lot of the girls there had lots of issues. There was theft, bullying, drug taking, so many eating disorders, huge amounts of pressure to do well academically. It was a toxic environment and after that I'd never want to send my kids private. I'm currently pregnant with my first and just moved to an area with good state schools which I hope can give my kids a more well rounded environment to learn in.

Op the vast vast majority of children attend a state comprehensive school. Many of them do very well. The majority will fulfil their potential.

I agree, you will find poor behaviour and language in a grammar school or even a private school. I went to a single sex grammar and that was my experience.

my dc went to the nearest comprehensive school and that school and its teachers expected a lot of them. That is the case in plenty of state school. I suggest you look more closely at possible local comps. Or go private if you have the money and are happy to do so.

aren't exposed to hideous language and behaviour daily.

My friend who went to a vair posh boarding school that cost her dad ahitloads of money each term is the best swearer I know, she uses "fuck" like its punctuation. And her stories about her school days are eyebrowing raising even by my standards, I went to the local secondary school.

I would based your choice of school on more than wanting to shelter your DD from bad language because I can guarantee that, no matter which school you choose, they learn ALL of the swears in Year 7.

I grew up in a grammar school area. I now live in an area where there are no grammar schools and the choice is between independents and comprehensives. Everyone I know locally has sent their child to a comprehensive. The kids have generally done extremely well - several to Oxbridge, most of the rest to Russell Group unis including to study law and medicine, and most of the rest to specialist vocational courses for arts/technology.

The problem might be that there aren't any good schools near you. But comprehensives in areas where the high achievers aren't creamed off into grammars, can be, and often are, excellent schools.

Exactly this. If you live near a school you will see the bad behaviour from the school's pupils. This happens at all schools. My lovely high achieving nephews go to a well known grammar school. In laws who live near the school say the language when they pile out in the afternoon is terrible. They face exactly the same issues as at the state schools.

Actually, I think I maligned comprehensives in grammar areas just then, as they are often excellent schools too, but it's harder for them to support their more academically able/ambitious pupils without a full cohort of peers.

I was in your situation. I had the absolute privilege of attending a fantastic, high achieving, inclusive, state secondary. I thought all schools were like mine, but have since learned that they are not.

The answer has been different for each of my children so far. One will go to private school (selective), one will go to a state school I barely knew existed until we were allocated it because all of the three choices we put down (including catchment) were oversubscribed. When we looked round, I was blown away with how much nicer I found it than the others we'd seen, I just hadn't thought about schools in that geographical direction.

I think what I'm saying is that an answer will come, even if it doesn't seem that way. Keep a firm idea of what you value, keep exploring ways to make that happen, and cross your fingers it works out.

In case it doesn't work out, and you end up with no options other than a school you're unhappy with, have a think about what you'd be willing to do to change things. Change jobs? Work a second job? Move house? Homeschool?

Sorry another point, when you say you don't want your DC exposed to 'hideous behaviour'. We once had to have an assembly because someone smeared shit on the walls and threw bloody tampons around one of the toilets. The head asked us not to do this again. I'd consider that pretty hideous behaviour and none of my friends at state schools had to deal with things like that 🤣

Mate of mine was a teacher in London state
Went to work in a private school
Said the state school class had 23 kids out of or 32 for whom English was not the 1st language
Made it impossible for the kids who wanted to learn to do so
He just got depressed by it and had to get out
No way would I let my kids go to state education
It is too important

I would consider whether you think that all the children who go to their local comps don’t achieve their full potential and end up under confident and low achieving?

Not all of the “bright” kids go to grammar or private.

bad language and behaviour is present amongst all teenagers, regardless of what school they go to. It doesn’t mean that they will become derailed drop outs of society,

My DS is starting our local comp in September, he didn’t want to go to a grammar school miles away from our house. He wanted to go where he knew some friends were going and that he could walk to by himself.

Educate yourself by going to visit the actual schools, speak to the teachers and staff, the headteachers. Ask them all of the uncomfortable questions. Then form your opinions.

My view is you need to make these decisions in cooperation with your child.

Er most kids go to state comprehensives despite what you read on mumsnet! If the schools in your area are poor you could always move.

And lol at the idea that private school and grammar pupils never swear or behave badly.

There was plenty of hideous language and a fair bit of bad behaviour at my dd's comprehensive school. On the other hand, they didn't have the massive drugs problem that they have in the prestigious selective private school down the road.

My dd came out of her comp with straight 9s at GCSE, an abundance of confidence and lots of really lovely friends. She plans to be a doctor.

You're massively overthinking this. Family support and home environment have a far, far bigger impact on outcomes than the type of school attended.

My Y9 tells me that language is awful in her state comprehensive, and there’s a lot of vaping in toilets, breaking rules round phone use etc. A boy in her class was expelled (she thinks) in Y7 for bringing in a pocket knife. Not a lesson goes by without someone getting some kind of sanction for poor behaviour, but that’s often only a name on the board for talking. Isolations and even one day exclusions aren’t even gossip worthy, they’re so common. There’s a separate unit on site for worst behaving children - as they have enough to justify that.

She and her friends are signed up to DofE, are excited about volunteering at a primary sports day, and play in the school football team. They all have many As in their effort and attainment results. They are, when you chat to them, “wholesome”. They’re not the nerds and complain loudly if you suggest it. They say they’re just ordinary, possibly seen as “a bit sporty”. They leave the mouthy vape girls to it - privately think they’re stupid but also slightly impressed by the bravado. They know them to say hi to, and are not bullied by them.

I expect there are pockets like this is very many state schools.

She'll be exposed to foul language at grammar, though possibly in a slightly better accent. She'll also be more likely to be exposed to incredibly bitchy toxic behaviour and anorexia at a girls selective. But again, posher sounding swear words which seems to be your priority....

Remember she won't be going to secondary school as the 9 year old she is now. She'll be going as an 11/12 year old adolescent and all the attitude that goes with that.

We are catchment for Grammar most state kids don't get in as the Prep
Schools spend their whole curriculum getting the kids over the line. The majority are at the local comprehensive. Children are getting into University, complete the DoE and know how negotiate all the challenges that the real world have to offer. My DCs know all the swear words but chose not to use them.

Well yes because all state schools have majority Non-English speaking students don't they? Oh wait, not they don't. So what fucking use was this post?

YABU to suggest that all state schools are hideous and filled with terrible behaviour, no discipline etc.

YAalsoBU if you haven't actually gone to look at the schools in your area. I find it hard to believe that in an area where by the sounds of it there's at least the chance some children are going to private, that ALL the state schools are soooo bad.

We have a number of excellent state schools around here. One of them however was not always so good. It has a fairly bad reputation as a sort of hangover from that. Never ceases to amaze me how often people have lots of opinions about the school without actually attending it, visiting it, or talking to the students or their parents.

If you live in a spectacularly bad area for schools, then move house.

My 2 dc are doing well at the local comp. I'll admit it wasn't that great when dc1 started but they got a new head when he was in year 7 who is very enthusiastic and has turned the school around. DC1 is predicted mainly 7's, 8's and 9's in his gcse's this summer.

I honestly don't think it's children that are likely to do average to very well (nothing wrong with average) that suffer least in secondary school. You sound like a parent who will encourage and provide what you can to help your child to do well. It's children who don't have that home environment or who struggle themselves who are likely to benefit more from smaller class sizes and greater support.

I grew up in a rough area with the nearest grammar schools 10 miles away (there were 4 to choose from if you could travel and get in) but 5 other schools within 4 miles with varying Ofsted reports so most went to the non-selective schools. My cousin (same age, same sex) went to a grammar and of the 2 I got the better grades and followed the more traditional route to university. I was a more motivated student rather than more academically gifted. What I'm trying to get across is that a child can learn anywhere but their personality and support system at home can have a large impact.

I understand how you feel. The thought of feeding my child with additional needs into our local, fairly new, so unproven secondary had me waking up in a cold sweat. It didn't help that the known bullies from primary were all going there. We got lucky and decided to go slightly out of area but still in our borough and got a place at an all girls school. Some of the things dd reports back to me are shocking but on the whole, it feels like the safer option. Even the supposed "trouble makers" are generally kind to dd and the staff are very committed, with bullying stamped on ruthlessly as soon as it's reported. I'd make the same choice again. I think, especially in city schools, choosing single sex can ease the process.

Friend of mine was a teacher in a pretty rough company in a particularly rough area. Thought he'd died and honestly to heaven when he got a job at a private dchool in a nice town. For about 2 terms, then he was looking for jobs in state schools again and had to be back there. Stayed in state schools ever since snd eould never go back to private. The final straw wax realising the Head was serious when he said there needed to be 2 teachers in each loo for a school disco. 1 to make sure there was no drug taking and one to chaperone the first to protect them against allegations of assault or worse when they caught the drug takers/seller's.