To worry that no state, non-selective secondary schools are good enough.

[SecondarySnob]

I know I am BU. I know there will be loads of people who send their kids to the local comp and their kids do fine and get good results and aren't exposed to hideous language and behaviour daily.

But.

I can't see how that could happen having researched all of the local schools.

Oldest DD is 9yo. So this reality is suddenly hitting me.

We're in a non-Grammar area. (DH and I grew up in a different county and went to grammars)

There's a girls grammar 10 miles away which has its own entrance exam so that's where I'm keeping my fingers crossed for her.

I'm also trying to work out how we can afford private school.

Because I've looked at results, spoken to friends who work in local comps, had them kids pass me when out and about, seen them walking to and from school, seen posts on local Facebook pages.

And I just can't see how my DD would get through 5 years at any of them and achieve what she's capable of and come out happy and confident like she deserves to be.

I don't want her to get straight A*s but I do want her to feel comfortable and supported enough to achieve the best she can.

I know this will get flamed by most. As it sounds horribly horribly snobby. I guess my background of going to a school that expected a lot of us means I was sheltered from the reality of a lot of teenage life.

But I'm hoping there are some mums out there like me who are worried at how secondary schools are.

And if so how did you make it work for your kids? Private education? Moving house?

OP, I think you'll find the 'our child could do no wrong' sort of a parent also exists in a select school, or an independent. If not more so. And that, yes, it's all the fault of the school. . .

Ah see I was sort of hoping the whole "interview the parents" process might weedle that out.

Thank you SO much.

You're so right and have given me so much to think about.

I don't want our desperation to protect our pre-teen to be at the detriment of her future life.

I think I need to really look harder at the state schools and as another poster said to ask hard questions.

Also consider perhaps a further move than we have been considering.

I don't mind a 20-30 minute commute for her (& I) during Y6 if it makes Y7-11 easier.

I went to bog standard comp (with some rough behaviour) but in my year people went onto to become doctors, dentists, solicitors, business, IT professionals etc. One of my children is now at a secondary, the behaviour of students is hit and miss (to say the least) but the exam results are very good. The very bright kids are a comps dream and they put alot of effort into making sure they achieve! I would say if your child is middling then these are the children that are sometimes forgotten so it's up to parent's to push. Also remember not all Independent Schools are good, in fact some are shocking! And in addition Grammar Schools take very bright kids in and funnily enough of course they do well. It doesn't mean the teaching is better.

It's more that I want them to avoid twats.

Ha, this is partly why mine go to state school, having experienced private school myself. (NB not saying all private school students are twats but nearly all of the ones I was at school with were.)

@stoneysongs This was my experience too, I totally agree.

Don’t make the mistake of thinking you can buy your way out of bad behaviour. My DH went to one of the most prestigious public schools in the country and was bullied mercilessly, to the extent that it has had a lasting effect on his mental health. Other pupils also referred to local state school kids as ‘plebs’, to give you an idea of the kind of people they were.

You get horrible twats whatever school you go to.

I think it is always worth digging down into schools’ results to see ‘how well the group of children that my child is likely to fall into’, rather than looking at headline results.

it is obvious that, if you compare a grammar school with almost 80% high attainers and the rest high middle; very low SEN; very low Pupil Premium /SEN with a school with a fully comprehensive intake, the comprehensive school’s ‘headline’ results will look worse.

The question you are trying to answer is ‘on average, how do high ability girls with SEN (if your dd’s ND is recorded formally as such) do in this school?’ You can get an inkling of this from the results and Progress 8 of the high attaining group alone; you can gain more by considering how large a percentage of the school falls into this group and still more by talking to the SENDCo at an open day.

Assuming a school is good because a selected intake gets better results than one with a more diverse intake is …. dubious. Newspapers do it all the tine. So do parents, and thus MN. It doesn’t make it true.

I went to an all girls grammar…still had sex at 13!
I have DC at comp and 1 at super selective grammar…it’s all the same language and filth out of all their mouths. Seriously OP, your kiddo is growing up and you need to get used to it

I often post my family’s experience on threads like these, though it is a generation old. My parents were 1st generation grammar school products, worried about our local schooling options, gramnars abolished 5 years before ds due to start secondary. Our secondary destinations ranged from 11-16 just ex-secondary modern with almost no O level passes per year to highly selective boarding independent on a scholarship.

Our final A level and degree results (all Oxbridge) were essentially identical. The deciding factor was family not educational institution.

A boy in the year above me died of an overdose and three of my friends had abortions under the age of 16 at my very expensive selective private school.

There are no guarantees. What is important is how much the parents are involved. Which is what you've said but to be honest that's lip service in a private school. if you pay, you can get them to say pretty much anything.

You only have to read the bio of not remotely bright BongBong Marcos who went to Oxford and then Wharton to realise that money still buys eduction.

Honestly, I think kids who are smart and come from stable, steady backgrounds with loving, interested and involved parents will do well pretty much anywhere.

i went to a private school (Scotland). Some of the kids were fucking bonkers. Parents who worked long hours in professional jobs. Plenty of money but no time. Led to drug problems. Eating disorders. And don’t even get me started on the “rugby boys”

I wouldn’t send my girls to an all-girls school. How else are they supposed to learn how to navigate and deal with real life? It’s such a bubble. I want my girls to be well rounded, normal people, with friends from all backgrounds, happy and likeable and confident and able to get along with anyone. As someone socially awkward with crippling self confidence issues that stem back to my own school days, that’s important to me

Thank you. You make really good points (as have many others) about why not to send DD to a girls school.

Like you I'm trying to avoid my DD suffering the damage I did in school.

I'm hoping wherever she goes it'll differ hugely as her ND is diagnosed, unlike myself, who wasn't until adulthood.

So she will have a lot more understanding and support than I did growing up. Also she doesn't have a mega pushy, totally non-understanding father like me. So she's ahead in that respect.

My desperation to give her every opportunity to be as happy as possible can cloud my judgement.

Don’t make the mistake of thinking you can buy your way out of bad behaviour.

This, x1000. The parents and children of the school community are still human, and you'll find the same range of behaviours at private schools as you do in the state system. You're not any more likely to find parents with like concerns in a private school.than you are in the state system. You'll find people with a similar socioeconomic status and that's really it for common ground; the rest is just an assumption based on your own emotions.

My DC attended a private junior school but we have since changed to the local state school. The only noticeable difference is a slightly less well-funded theatre department.

Oh, and about ND -- that's something to watch with private school. Neither private school my DC attended will admit to this for obvious reasons, but we watched ND children and their families be gently "managed out" of the setting in both schools. They talk a lot about support, but when it came time for families who needed the support to use it, they were less than helpful.

That's scary to hear. Thanks for the heads up.

My DD has ADHD, but is very bright and very engaged with school.

It manifests in her as anxiety and RSD mainly.

But also means she's very easily distracted by children misbehaving in class (in that she gets frustrated that it's stoping her focusing and then can't focus on what she needs to) and struggles with children who break rules.

So in my head a smaller, more academic setting would be a benefit.

She also (if she's like me) will maybe require more support to be organised once it starts coming to coursework etc. But she'll have the support of DH and I which I didn't from my parents.

I would ask very pointed questions about how many children who start the school on the SEN register are still there at the end of Y11 and Y1.

Your opening post very honestly articulates a big reason why many parents send their child to private and grammar schools. As a former grammar school student, these feelings will be so heightened: I have many friends who were privately educated who just couldn't imagine sending their child to secondary. From the outside, state secondaries seem like the scariest of wild wests. Its impossible to envisage how learning, growth, support and happiness could happen in these places - but they do.

There are loads of advantages to private and grammar schools. But if your end goal is for your daughter to thrive and be happy, it might be worth bearing in mind a few things.

SEN provision in state far exceeds that in private. State schools are just much better resourced and there is so much expertise there. Dd has needs but no diagnosis and her school have just been so amazing from the get go. Dh and I are teachers, dds school has a significant number of chn from low-income backgrounds or with additional needs. Dd could easily have fallen out of view, but instead they have been proactive and super supportive.

You say you've looked at results, I would suggest you dig a bit deeper and look at schools Progress 8 data which gives an indication of their grades in comparison to SATS and assements they take in year 7. Covid has changed the requirements for reporting this data but you can look back to pre2020 info and you should get a good idea about academic performance.

I strongly agree with the point an pp made about private/grammar schools being a monoculture. While there are scary elements of state schools, it is easier to find a tribe in a large diverse school.

I would also add to that the importance of having local friends and short commutes that children can do independently. These things are invaluable in building confidence and a social network as your dd gets older. Even if you live right by your private/grammar school, chances are many of her friends won't be local.

Year 4 is a great time to start thinking about secondaries. You can go to open evenings in autumn of year 5 and start to get a feel for different schools. You might find a lot about state schools that you like a lot.

A final reflection about behaviour, bullying etc. State schools expect it, and good state schools are set up to deal with it. My dd is in a rough local comp and behaviour management at her place is seamless. State schools expect these things and see dealing with them as a key part of their job. Privste schools are a lot less comfortable with this and more likely to ignore/deny the worst of teenage behaviours. So homophobia, racism, bullying, social media issues, sexually aggressive language and behaviour - unfortunately, these things happen in all secondaries. Private schools are understandly wary about having their reputation tainted and consequently their responses to these issues are not always as rigorous as they should be and good practice not as consistently embedded.

Good luck with your decision.

@PickySlackTastic

Thank you.

Really from the bottom of my heart.

You're SO right about coming from a grammar background how non selective secondaries are perceived.

I'm so grateful for so many of the replies here. Thank you to everyone who's taken the time.

So grateful. And feeling a lot calmer and like I can get some plans in place.

Its so hard, isn't it? Because we parents have choice, we feel so much responsibility for making the right decision. Ultimately, so much of a child's school experience is out of our hands. A great form tutor, a new passion for an extra curricular activity, a life long friend your child sits next to in maths in year 8 - these things are so random but can be what makes school life great for a child. Likewise, the best school in the world can go downhill quickly after a change of leadership, or your dd could end up at a brilliant school but in the worst form in a tricky year group.

Also, there's no shame in going private if that feels right. I have ADHD and my mum always says she wishes I'd gone to the small all-girls private she ended up teaching in. Ill never know if she was right, but I really needed a lot more support than my state school secondary was able to give me. That was the 90s though, i was undiagnosed and my state was awful!

You're so right.

If my ADHD had been diagnosed (or if I had even myself been aware I was different and not just useless and lazy compared to other kids) I would have had so much less self hatred and disappointment.

I am still going to look at the 2 private schools. But I think I may also sit down with my DDs SENCO and ask their opinion on the local secondaries. As well as asking some of the great suggested questions here.

I guess my own looking back and seeing how much more I could have achieved with support makes me desperate for her to avoid that.

As well as my desperation to protect her and allow her to grow into the happiest and most confident woman she can be. And I think the private/girls schools pushing confidence is what made me so excited about them.

But this thread has also added something I hadn't considered which is her learning how to navigate the real world in the safety of a school environment rather than avoid it in a bubble.

@Vikinga not all schools have sets, our local comp doesn't. Mixed ability classes increase attainment for the lower ability but I wasn't convinced that they don't bring down attainment in the higher ability students.

Its hard for bright girls with either ASD or ADHD. This is something my dd articulates really well - she says she feels really ashamed of not being perfect because girls 'like her' (bright, articulate, middle-class) are 'supposed' to be super-organised with a love for neatly drawn margins! She also talks about how she feels like she's held to higher standards with regards to her social skills, and she can't meet these standards. These things really affect her confidence.

It's wonderful that she can articulate it.

I always felt that shame. But of course tried to hide it.

Then couldn't be something I wasn't but just got told off for forgetting something or being lazy again.