To worry that no state, non-selective secondary schools are good enough.

[SecondarySnob]

I know I am BU. I know there will be loads of people who send their kids to the local comp and their kids do fine and get good results and aren't exposed to hideous language and behaviour daily.

But.

I can't see how that could happen having researched all of the local schools.

Oldest DD is 9yo. So this reality is suddenly hitting me.

We're in a non-Grammar area. (DH and I grew up in a different county and went to grammars)

There's a girls grammar 10 miles away which has its own entrance exam so that's where I'm keeping my fingers crossed for her.

I'm also trying to work out how we can afford private school.

Because I've looked at results, spoken to friends who work in local comps, had them kids pass me when out and about, seen them walking to and from school, seen posts on local Facebook pages.

And I just can't see how my DD would get through 5 years at any of them and achieve what she's capable of and come out happy and confident like she deserves to be.

I don't want her to get straight A*s but I do want her to feel comfortable and supported enough to achieve the best she can.

I know this will get flamed by most. As it sounds horribly horribly snobby. I guess my background of going to a school that expected a lot of us means I was sheltered from the reality of a lot of teenage life.

But I'm hoping there are some mums out there like me who are worried at how secondary schools are.

And if so how did you make it work for your kids? Private education? Moving house?

My ds's state secondary is excellent. he was predicted all 7's based on his SAT's now after 5 years there he's predicted all 8's and 9's. It depends where you live as they vary hugely. They have a fantastic behaviour policy there but you're going to get swearing and problem behaviour no matter where you go.

People will have had different experiences at different schools.

It comes down to what environment will work best for your child and whether you can get access to it.

My local secondary is good on many levels but wouldn't work for my neuro diverse DD13. I had intended to send her there previous to working out what was going on with her. She is thriving in a small all girls private school where there is a lot less noise because of 12 girls per class.

So work out what's best for you child and if you can go after it.

To counterbalance some of the views that private schools tend to have just as much bad behaviour etc., this wasn't my experience either when I was at school or in experiencing the private sector afterwards.

I went to a state comp and then a selective girls' day school. In the former lessons were almost inevitably disrupted by behavioural issues - in some classes it was essentially impossible to work and it made the atmosphere at school very stressful. A sizeable minority of pupils regularly swore at teachers and occasionally assaulted them. I never saw anything approaching this in the private girls' school or any of the other independent schools I've had experience of. If you're paying private school fees you're not going to tolerate a culture where your child can't work because of disruption and most private schools won't allow this. Going into calm classes where most people got on with working made a huge difference to me. The private school I went to had much less "discipline" than the state school in that detentions were rarely used and we were generally trusted much more from a younger age (e.g. allowed to stay in classrooms and move around school freely at lunchtime whereas at the state school we were locked outside ) - there was just a culture of good behaviour at school.

In my experience behaviour outside of the classroom was mostly quite good too (clearly with exceptions) - there were girls with issues around eating disorders, mental health, drugs etc. but most were quite driven academically and most parents had quite a lot of oversight. I've heard that boarding schools tend to have worse behaviour out of class but only anecdotally.

Cleary there's a range of different experiences on this thread and private isn't a guarantee of no swearing or good behaviour but I do think it improves the odds that at least while your child is at school behaviour is unlikely to be so bad that it affects their learning.

It’s not snobby - you just have standards. I am a normal person, from a fairly poor upbringing and I was horrified at the behaviour of the kids in my secondary school.

As an adult I have worked in a very highly regarded state comp, in a beautiful village… and guess what! The behaviour was atrocious there too.

No chance my kids will be hanging out with the scumbags at comps which ruin it for everyone else.

We used to live in a part of town that had dreadful local secondaries and an excellent church secondary. I got them into the church school - if I hadn't managed that I would have home schooled. Both DC attended top universities and are now both professionally qualified. One of DS's friends from primary attended the local secondary with a poor reputation. He actually did Ok academically and came out with good As and went to Uni, but he didn't find it easy.

And no way that my dc would ever be hanging out with kids who have the kind of parents who refer to children as "scumbags". I dislike bad behaviour but I dislike snobbery every bit as much.

Mine went to private boarding. One awesome and one worse than a failing academy. Schools are schools, focus on the leadership, a decent head is worth more than a school badge. And these days, private kids are less likely to get decent university places. Mine study in the US, bloody expensive but they would have ended up in a seaside town in the UK otherwise. The one we moved to state boarding is oxbridge.

Yanbu and I totally agree, we are having similar dilemmas

I went to a private girls school in the 80’s, work in a professional career and I’ve sent my dc to the local comprehensive.

The results are almost as good as the local private schools. Eldest is through and did very well, the only limitation educationally we’ve had is for dd2 who is very bright and wanted to do two languages at GCSE which would have been an option at the private school.

There is bad language at the comp of course but I heard similar at my private school. I once went home and used the word cunt which I’d heard at school that day. I didn’t know what it meant and my mum was furious :-)

This is such a weird thread OP. I went to a state comprehensive in the North East. It was in fact an academy that had been cobbled together out of two failing schools and was in an extremely deprived area. Lots of the kids came from poor families. They still expected a lot of us; I went to Oxford. I still visit my school and talk to them about Oxbridge admissions and I'm really bloody proud of how hard the teachers work.

It's not weird. It's likely if you are young enough to have been at an academy, you were highlighted as needy and given positive discrimination

The best thing you can do is prepare dd for high school over next couple of years. Make sure she knows about nspcc type issues - body image, sexualised terms, coersive control, peer pressure, dealing with bullying. Giving her a sense of self and knowledge how to handle situations she may come across.

Thanks so much everyone. I'm really grateful for the vast majority of replies and actually really glad I posted this.

DD1 is only Y4. We're moving house before we need to decide on/apply for schools. So our plan is to go by results/word of mouth to know which to look at and then move based on where we like after the open days.

Early research and word of mouth has made DH and I really disheartened though. Hence then looking into independent schools and the grammar etc.

My sister was driven to the next county everyday (30 miles) for secondary. High achieving girls grammar. She was miserable and bullied.
She would have been better at the local comp my brother and I went to (but my Mum thought she was doing her best for her).
Incidentally all three of us have similar gcses, a levels and degree, and my comp school brother has a science PhD.
I think the "good kids do well anywhere" , is partly true.
Focus on where she will be happy.

@PineappleWilson I drive 16 miles each way. My kids are not secondary age but I wanted them to go to the nicest school I could find. I'd do it for secondary in a heartbeat if necessary.

You just have to do what you have to do.

One of my children dropped out of a private school and went to the local state school. The teaching was better and the children were nicer - the private school was a viper's nest of bullying and spitefulness. They're in medical school now.

OP excellent plan. Just research the hell out the schools around you. Take the Ofsted reports with a pinch of salt. Some Outstanding ones have not been seen in 10 years but they are getting round to it. When we moved Dd from an outstanding to satisfactory school, she was much happier and did better academically. They were satisfactory as there was political pressure to make them an academy.

OP you ask about people who went to a single-sex selective private school - mine was not private but it was the other two. It was a long time ago and of course there was no internet or mobiles; but there was still poor behaviour and unsupportive parents. I was a swot and sailed through on a wave of great results, but the school dd not prepare me at all for the real world as I left my clever fancy echo chamber. I went to uni and knew nothing about relationships or boys, blundered through it all and made a bit of a mess. As it happens, I also had a salutary moment when I realised I wasn;t as smart as I thought I was haha. I am hoping that my own DD, having been to school with boys all her life, is a bit better prepared.

I have no doubt that the situation for today's girls in single-sex selective schools is better, as in, they will communicate with boys (and girls) via the many ways now available that I could not use and hopefully have a wide and varied circle of friends. But of course doing that is likely to expose them to the dangers you fear. I think you need to educate your DD on how to
behave and what to do in certain situations - then let her get on with it. Sheltering her behind a curtain of non-knowledge until she is 18 will not help - believe me.

It’s not always that simple. People can be priced out or lose their homes due to redundancy, disability etc and not being able to afford their mortgage. Catchments change. Or rules change. Schools, which are out of catchment but have traditionally always taken children from a certain area / village stop due to policy changes or new homes being built closer to the school. People get divorced. Renters are not in secured housing and therefore vulnerable. People can’t just click their fingers and buy in the right area and so forth.

The op says she’s moving at some point to get closer to whichever school but it’s not that easy especially in London

A house price premium close by means you need very high amount for a house or even a flat

Or the schools themselves change. One near us is on its fourth head teacher since we've been here. A new head might love sport and hate music, or want to create an Ofsted factory, or demand silence in the corridors and No Homework Excuses Unless Actually Dead.

I went to a local state school. Straight A student. My best friend went to a private all girls school. She also got straight As. However, her mental health and self-confidence were in tatters by the time she left. Everyday, all the girls were toxic and competitive. She falls into bad relationship after bad relationship. She didn’t grow up around boys and men so she was very naive and is only now starting to see red flags. She’s not alone. The opposite sex will appear a novelty and more exciting if you’ve been kept away from them.

We’re both in our mid 20s, just for reference.

Thanks @clary

You're right. I do totally worry that by going to a single sex school all that happens is delaying real life.

I was dead against going to an all girls school and actually have always enjoyed male company and at my school had as many friends who were boys as I did girls.

I don't have brothers so I do wonder how I'd have found uni if I'd have gone into it having left an all girls school. (I had the choice between single or mixed sex grammar and didn't even view the girls grammar!)

But then DD does extracurricular activities already that includes boys, and we have family friends with sons her age.

So then part of me thinks would it mean the boys she is exposed to are ones who will help to (along with DH) give her a good sense of what is decent behaviour to expect from any males in her life.

As even at my nice mixed school I suffered sexual assault more than once.

Again, not that I realise sexual assault can't happen in a single sex school before I get accused of that.

I wouldn't send DS1 to the local private school even if we could afford it. There are horrendous bullying issues and from what I've seen now and in the past, the kids are in the main arrogant and ill mannered.

Nor would I send them to the local selective/religious school. Again there is bullying and the pastoral care is severely lacking. They may have consistently high grades but when you cream off the top and cull the less able it's not that difficult.

DS1 goes to the local state school. He's very well supported there as he is at home. Bullying is stamped down on HARD. Unlike the children of our friends who attend both the selective and fee paying schools, he looks forward to going. That works for me.

Just to play devils advocate with your comment about her getting into bad relationship after bad relationship.

How is her parents relationship compared to yours?

As honestly my DC could not have a better role model than my DH for when it comes to how a man should treat a woman. So I like to hope that even without boys are school my DD will have high expectations of how any boyfriends should treat her.