To worry that no state, non-selective secondary schools are good enough.

[SecondarySnob]

I know I am BU. I know there will be loads of people who send their kids to the local comp and their kids do fine and get good results and aren't exposed to hideous language and behaviour daily.

But.

I can't see how that could happen having researched all of the local schools.

Oldest DD is 9yo. So this reality is suddenly hitting me.

We're in a non-Grammar area. (DH and I grew up in a different county and went to grammars)

There's a girls grammar 10 miles away which has its own entrance exam so that's where I'm keeping my fingers crossed for her.

I'm also trying to work out how we can afford private school.

Because I've looked at results, spoken to friends who work in local comps, had them kids pass me when out and about, seen them walking to and from school, seen posts on local Facebook pages.

And I just can't see how my DD would get through 5 years at any of them and achieve what she's capable of and come out happy and confident like she deserves to be.

I don't want her to get straight A*s but I do want her to feel comfortable and supported enough to achieve the best she can.

I know this will get flamed by most. As it sounds horribly horribly snobby. I guess my background of going to a school that expected a lot of us means I was sheltered from the reality of a lot of teenage life.

But I'm hoping there are some mums out there like me who are worried at how secondary schools are.

And if so how did you make it work for your kids? Private education? Moving house?

had them kids pass me when out and about,

This was the product of your superior grammar school education, was it?

obviously it's only the teen boys who are problematic in state schools. No boys in private schools are inappropriate or use the internet inappropriately. And obviously there are no girls in single sex or private schools who take selfies of themselves in their underwear from year 8. None at all

Since I saw the typo as I reread my (uneditable post) I've been waiting for this reply.

Thanks for not disappointing!

I don't think the divide is state vs private but good school vs crap school.

Remember though that loud, obnoxious kids are, well, louder than the quiet, kind, shy, gentle ones, so you may be noticing all the wrong ones.

Also, as a PP said, bear in mind that your child will not stay 9 for ever. Do you know anyone with kids at the other end of secondary? In year 7, I watched my DD barrel her way confidently through a group of enormous, hairy, bellowing 15-16 year olds, whereas her friend baulked in horror. They were equally sheltered little girls, the only difference being that DD knew some of the lads as her brother's friends.

All of the children that I see misbehaving locally are wearing the state comp uniform not the private school uniform, same for fights and foul language. It is one of the reasons I chose private.

There is an excellent state not too far from here but I couldn't afford to live in the catchment!

I think you have an unrealistic view of the benefits of a private school.

Parents can be just as uninvolved in what their children do at a private school, it's just for different reasons. Arguably, private school children have more access to technology, etc, not less.

Appalling and sexually aggressive language doesn't have an income bracket, unfortunately. I find in the private school it's just hidden better, as is bullying.

In one local private school, the closest one to our house, the money involved also means a fairly hefty problem with drugs. The bored, idle teens have a lot of money to spend, and some of them spend it making some very questionable life choices.

I wouldn't assume the parents of pupils at an all-girls school feel the same as you do. The reality is they're likely to be just as much a mixed bag as parents at the local comp, but with a better income.

I would rather my children went to a school in a non- grammar area every day of the week. You will get the full spectrum of abilities there and your child will be able to find their place. In a grammar area you had better hope your child doesn’t have a bad day when they do their entrance exams. I imagine the comps in grammar areas are awful without any hope as they have already been singled out as the losers at the age of 11. That to me is truly awful. Kids reach their potential at different ages.

Do you not think this counts as ground work?

And the fact I've looked at every school within 10 miles' results etc?

I am precious. My DC are precious.

I want the best for them.

We will be moving in the next year to be in catchment of whichever state school allows us to remain close enough to stay near the family I need to support and for DH to get to work.

I guess when parents lack critical thinking ability to this degree, it kind of makes sense to pay someone else to take over the responsibility of educating their kids.

YANBU to worry about your child's education.
I don't know if YABU to worry about your local schools as obviously I don't know them.
But YABVVU to make such sweeping generalisation about all non selective state schools and their pupils, and incredibly naive to assume that private or grammar will necessarily provide the environment you are after.
There are good, bad and indifferent schools of all types. There are nice kids and not so nice kids, great, average and poor teachers in every school. And the world has changed beyond recognition in recent years. The internet and mobile devices have brought many advantages but also represent significant risks to young people in particular. All young people, regardless of what kind of school they go to. You can't hide from it, you have to manage it. A lot of your worries are real, and sensible concerns, but sending your child to a private school won't solve them.
I used to work in a hospital in the area of a well known and very expensive boarding school and treated a fair number of their pupils over time. Some of them were lovely, polite articulate youngsters. Some were not. Drugs and alcohol were a major issue - proportionately more so than in the local state schools I would say, if my experience is anything to go by. I didn't have secondary aged children at the time, but friends who did would say that their children dreaded sports fixtures against this school as their opponents would be so abusive both on and off the pitch. As I say, they were not all like that of course, and the local state schools had their fair share of horrors too, but the assumption that the independent was full of lovely young ladies and gentlemen and the state schools of little shits was absolutely not true.

DH went to a very expensive, very fancy private school with something crazy like 100 pupils in the whole school. He started taking drugs at 14, his best friend lost his virginity at 13 and he was exposed to lots of terrible behaviour such as thefts which were possibly more rampant than state schools because more kids had more expensive items! They definitely all swore too, I don’t think this is exclusive to state school teenagers…

He came away with straight A’s and A*’s but then so did I and I went to a failing comp. He wishes he wasn’t sent to private school because he felt he never fit in. His parents weren’t ridiculously wealthy like everyone else’s, one girl was dropped off in a helicopter for example. My PIL’s struggled to send him there and accumulated lots of debt, Christ knows why they felt it was so important because I would put money on DH doing just as well in a state school if not better, maybe he’d never have taken drugs in the local comp.

Thanks for your feedback. I'm really grateful for all the replies and I think I need to find some parents of girls at the grammar and private schools I'm comparing the comps too.

I'm clueless on Private schools.

There are a lot in this area but the 2 I am looking at are both selective and, not only that, they interview the girls' parents to ask how they plan to support their daughters learning and the school.

That's what has, for the first time, made me suddenly think that a private school could be for us. There are plenty around here that are just "bring money" and those I don't have an interest in.

I'm sure I'm still being ridiculously naive. But I like the idea that her peers will have parents who feel like DH and I when it comes to education.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Just reading your updates, what you actually mean is you want a girls only school for your DD. That's fine, but if the reason for that is to avoid parents who don't control internet access or indeed exposure to boys, then you are going to be sorely disappointed. Re independent schools, did Everyone's Invited pass you by?

This whole thing reminds of the Scouting fir girls song 'Posh girls'. I went to a selective independent school. Some of the 6th formers supplied the local comp and there was all sorts going on...as I imagine could happen anywhere. I will not be sending my child to private school, I look back in disgust at the attitude and entitlement they tried to instill. That doesn't mean I don't want my child to do well, of course I do, but I feel that understanding and being around those from all walks of life is more valuable.

Everyone's invited did pass me by. But I will make sure to find it.

But I also think you haven't seen my most recent update.

It's specifically only 2 private girls' schools I'm considering.

Not state vs private.

I am 100% aware of drug and bullying issues in local private schools and they're fully off the list.

Thankfully though my DC wouldn't be automatically placed in one of those if they didn't get whichever school we list as #1.

My kids attend an "outstanding" rated comp. Teaching may be good but its a huge school and there are serious problems - regular fights, kids carry knives, serious drug problems (county lines), vaping in the toilets etc. And being a large school they do take rejects from other state schools - including some who have been expelled from other schools and are waiting on court cases for some very serious crimes.
My take is the girls can be as bad as the boys. My DD let me scroll through some Yr8-10 girls' instagrams. These girls come from middle class families, live in a boringly middle class area and yet they present themselves as if they were gangsters with weapons, cigarettes and practically no clothing - apparently it's what the boys like.
In reality most large secondary schools whether comp or grammar will have bullying, drugs and bad behaviour. What is more important is how the kids react to it.

Thank you so much for replying.

Really I'd love to hear from women who went to independent selective schools as in real life I don't know anyone who did.

All I can go by are their websites etc.

Some comps are brilliant and really are a complete mix of high achieving / lower achieving / mix of families but the school inspire confidence and get the best out of the kids and have robust discipline policies.
Some comps are nothing like this and don’t get the best out of children or are full of disadvantaged kids with absent parents.
Many schools in grammar areas that are not grammar have difficulties with academic achievement because the highest 30% have all been taken by the grammar schools.
Whilst a grammar school won’t cut out swearing or some behaviours, in my experience the kids who go there mostly have parents who are interested in their kids education. Interested in broadening their horizons. Actively interested in their child being the best they can possibly be. This of course isn’t true for all kids but is true for the majority.
In my experience, parents who are negative about grammars / independents are those that have had a personal grievance or those that are secretly jealous / bitter that their child is not grammar material / haven’t got the money for independent. They won’t admit that of course, even to themselves but instead make themselves feel better by picking holes and finding any negative anecdotes to convince themselves that ‘actually grammar schools and independents are all toxic anyway’
If your daughter is bright and willing to learn, don’t be put off by distance. You know her best and what would be best for her.

Interviewing the attitude of the parents won’t guarantee you anything except that some parents lie, or some don’t even lie but the school has a profit to make.

Ever consider you just fell for their marketing trick?

Oh, the things I did to instil a real love of learning in my child! The children’s fun science fairs at the university campus, dressing up in Anglo Saxon clothes in Suffolk museums, taking her children’s theatre as a baby, a home full of books… I’d ace their interview, I really would. The video of her excited and engaged and smiling doing an experiment for her Y5 class at primary science week fair. First prize 😍

Guess what? Y9. Great kid. Intelligent. Still does the bear minimum she can get away with these days 😭

I’m not against selective private schools btw. I’d have loved to have afforded it for mine. I think mine would do better academically at one, as it happens.

Also the opportunities - sports day at my friend’s private is like the bloody Olympics with the proper equipment, they actually teach hurdle technique in Y5, and have a pro photographer present! I’m beyond jealous.

But behaviour… it’s shocking everywhere, outside of the classroom, and you won’t easily buy your way out of that.

Please don't apply for a school 10 miles away for your DD. She won't thank you for a 20 mile round trip every day, however good the school is, and her friends will be too far away to visit after school

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. DD1 loved her school which was 10 miles away and the school bus took 40 minutes to get there - same as for my school actually which was much nearer to my home. Loads of kids in my local area travel to go to grammar school. They put them in forms and houses with kids that live near them. She has friends that live in the local town to the school and some that live more locally and they definitely see one another outside school.

However, also do have a look at your local schools and see what you think.

Don’t worry about the PPs being rude. As you say you want the best for your child. That in itself is one of the greatest indicators they will do well. I taught in lots of different schools and went to private and a posh public school myself. Based on my experiences, my children went/go to the local comp (no grammars here). Eldest one got 2 A stars and an A. And a nice nest egg for a house rather than us paying for her to travel a long way to a private school. We went round them all. It’s a bit of a lifestyle choice to be honest - some of the parents that chose private worked long hours and their social circle did it and also it meant the children were out from 7am - 6pm on the bus/at school. I took reduced hours as we didn’t need the income to pay fees and took them to clubs etc outside school. What also helps is less wasted time travelling and having friends nearby in holidays. If you find a school you fall in love with I would move as with private you’ll be paying 120k+ extra anyway.

Haven’t RTFT yet OP. Yes, you will most likely get horribly flamed for admitting this, but I completely understand where you’re coming from. It’s difficult, when you’ve had an excellent education yourself, to feel like you’re having to compromise even slightly with your DC.

While my own DD is way too young for all this yet, I suspect we’ll be in a similar dilemma when the time comes. DP and I went to the same super-selective grammar in the ‘90s and still live locally. It was fairly competitive to get in then, but nowadays it’s gone utterly bonkers - private tutors from the moment they enter Year 3 etc. We both loved the school, and coming from very ordinary backgrounds it undoubtedly broadened our horizons and gave us opportunities we otherwise never would have accessed - culture of aspiration and intellectual curiosity, endless extra-curriculars, you’d walk into assembly each morning to music played by a concert-level orchestra and so on. Almost everyone was engaged and wanted to learn, I never witnessed a fight or any major disruption while I was there, and while drugs etc were present if you wanted them, they never really infringed on school life that much.

We’ve always said that ideally we’d like our daughter to go to a good comp, and that we don’t want to put her through the crazy stress of the eleven plus - but the reality of our local options means I’m already wavering. We’re out of catchment for the best comprehensive options and I wouldn’t be happy sending DD to either of the schools we’d reliably get into. I imagine we’ll either cave and start tutoring, or end up moving down the road to access the better comps.

Several old school friends had their DC long before us and have ended up sending them to the local ‘Outstanding’ comp because they missed out on a place at our old school. While it has by no means been a disaster, they are very honest about admitting that they do feel a level of guilt about this, and recognise the disparity between the amazing opportunities we were given and what their DC are experiencing, which is comparatively mediocre. The main differences seem to be in ethos, depth of curriculum and extra curricular opportunities - overall standard of sport, music, debating etc within the school.

It’s difficult to feel you’re having to adjust your expectations down when it comes to your own children’s education and potential life changes.

I completely understand your worries about teenage boys - quite gross creatures, for the most part. I have to say, though, that I'm quite glad my first exposure to boys and boyfriends etc. was when I was living at home with my parents and only at school 9am-3pm.

I think it would have been much worse to suddenly be thrown into a situation where you're potentially living in student halls of residence with boys having been to a single sex school.

There’s also no link between children who speak English as a second language and poor attainment. Some very fancy private schools also have kids who speak other languages at home.