To worry that no state, non-selective secondary schools are good enough.

[SecondarySnob]

I know I am BU. I know there will be loads of people who send their kids to the local comp and their kids do fine and get good results and aren't exposed to hideous language and behaviour daily.

But.

I can't see how that could happen having researched all of the local schools.

Oldest DD is 9yo. So this reality is suddenly hitting me.

We're in a non-Grammar area. (DH and I grew up in a different county and went to grammars)

There's a girls grammar 10 miles away which has its own entrance exam so that's where I'm keeping my fingers crossed for her.

I'm also trying to work out how we can afford private school.

Because I've looked at results, spoken to friends who work in local comps, had them kids pass me when out and about, seen them walking to and from school, seen posts on local Facebook pages.

And I just can't see how my DD would get through 5 years at any of them and achieve what she's capable of and come out happy and confident like she deserves to be.

I don't want her to get straight A*s but I do want her to feel comfortable and supported enough to achieve the best she can.

I know this will get flamed by most. As it sounds horribly horribly snobby. I guess my background of going to a school that expected a lot of us means I was sheltered from the reality of a lot of teenage life.

But I'm hoping there are some mums out there like me who are worried at how secondary schools are.

And if so how did you make it work for your kids? Private education? Moving house?

Opposite problem here.
I would worry about my children going to the closest schools which are single sex. I would worry they won't get a good experience of their teenage years with single sex.

My youngest child is just finishing at our local very diverse state school. All 3 have or expected to get good gcses, none experienced bullying, all enjoyed school on the whole and importantly mixed with a vast range of children. I am very sure they were frequently exposed to bad language and vaping in the toilets. That's life for you.

Really? SB

OP I do get where you're coming from. Where I live all the local state secondary schools are dire. Fortunately, my eldest (also ND) got a place at the only good school and their siblings just followed.

Of my group of friends with children the same age as my eldest, one other went to the same school as mine, 2 went to different private schools and the rest went to the local catchment school. By year 10 all bar one had left the local school. The main issue wasn't actually the results, although they weren't great, it was the behaviour. Bullying is rife, there have been incidents involving knives, and more than once autistic children have been beaten up while walking home from school. I have a friend who works there as a teacher and her own children go to the same school as mine. She said they'd be eaten alive in her school, all the kids there think they are gangsters. This is supposedly one of the best schools in the area! TBF our area is very near the bottom for performance nationally so it's not surprising they aren't great. I imagine that people who live in an area where the local schools are good would find it hard to imagine just how bad some schools are. My DCs school is not perfect, but it is a lot better than the other options here.

I think you need to visit as many schools as you can and find out more. Ask about discipline, what they teach kids about internet usage, respect, bullying, friendships, aspiration etc.

I have 2 teens at different state schools, neither of them is outstanding. One is 18 and sitting A Levels and the other is 15 and just finished year 10 exams. Both are doing incredibly well academically, don't get into trouble, have made great friends and are hard working and respectful. Some of their friends went to private secondary schools and academically they're not doing as well as my kids. On that basis alone I'm really glad I didn't waste my money on private education.

Yes, there are some disrespectful kids at their schools but my kids avoid them. If your DD has support at home, is bright and a good head on her shoulders she'll do just fine. Yes, class sizes are big but my kids have learnt they just need to get on with it and put in the extra study at home if they need to.

If you have the money you can provide additional opportunities outside school - music lessons, sports etc.

I went to a fee paying grammar school on an assisted place in the 80's and 90's and it was an awful place. Full of privilege, bullying and a lot of drug use in the later years.

I'd also say about the kids in the selective schools is they have absolutely no idea about people from different socioeconomic backgrounds. All the grammar kids either went to private primary, or have middle class high earner parents who could afford the high house prices that the school catchment created.
There is no empathy at all- it's an abstract thing.
My kids are privileged and they know it, they are aware they have more money and chances than some of their friends. It makes them nicer to be around.

The girls grammar everyone is desperate to get their girls into here has a massive self harm issue, there was even a suicide.
I would not say the girls who go their have benefited confidence wise.

My ex went to a very good "public" school, it was and still is rife with bullying and pupils bragging about how wealthy their parents are and looking down on those who were less affluent. It was rife wuth drugs because the pupils had enough money to buy whatever they wanted. It was a miserable experience that literally affected his whole life but if you looked at just his exam results you would think it was an excellent school.

I live in an area with grammar schools but my daughter didn't take her 11+, she knew which school she wanted to attend and I fully supported her. She left with 5 A* which is as good as she would have achieved at a grammar school but more importantly she actually enjoyed her years at school with her friends and peer group. State schools are not dark educational voids, there are good and bad ones.

My niece went to a school in an area of Salford that had a terrible reputation and all the problems associated with an inner city school and she's just qualified as a Doctor and is going to be a GP.

If you child is intelligent and wants to learn and do well, they will, regardless of which school they attend.

Oh my god this is so accurate for where I live. No grammar schools in the area bar one about 20 miles away which became non-selective a while back (which kind of defeats the object of it I thought?! But then I don’t know much about grammar schools). There’s only one high school in our town, I went there, it’s shit, it’s spent the last 11 years since I left bouncing in and out of special measures. I was a relatively bright kid and definitely did not reach my potential (was predicted A*s and A’s, scraped 3 AB’s and 3 C’s). I found at that school you have to choose between friends or grades and I worried too much about what others thought so joined in with getting in trouble, bunking and just generally being a nuisance. Best part was, I was no-where near the worst student despite getting kicked out of lessons for attitude regularly. A boy in our year got expelled in year 11 for drug dealing on site. My sister did quite well at that school, but then we’re very different personalities and she was better at not being bothered about fitting in and getting her head down, whereas I wasn’t.

any decent high school within a 10 mile radius is over subscribed and generally catholic so we wouldn’t even get a look in as we don’t practice religion. As I said previously, no grammar options. We cannot afford private for one child let alone 3. My eldest is nearly 7, is pretty bright (not genius bright, but still pretty academic) but the school are in the early stages of starting a referral for an ADHD assessment and there’s no way he will be able to manage at that school as he’s a complete follower. He frequently gets in trouble now as he’s distracted by a strong gust of wind, that’s not going to get any better in a massive comp full of distractions and is known for poor behaviour. I can’t say what my other kids will be like as they’re only 1 and 4 months, but it’s a massive worry for me. We really don’t have any choices other than move but then we lose our family support system.

*3 B’s, not AB’s 🙈

I have worked in Independent schools for 16 yrs and I can tell you that the kids in indies drink, swear, smoke, vape and behave just a badly as those in state schools.
Another point to consider is that Mose Independent schools are selective, so there would be something very wrong if their results weren’t better than your average state comp. This is not due to superior teaching!

I was privately single sex educated and have worked in state schools. To me there was no question my girls wouldn't go private. We have a 90% bursary, you could look into that if funds are an issue.

When I hear what my state school educated friends got up to in their teen years, I'm grateful I was sheltered from it. I don't think it makes me any less rounded. I get on with friends from all kinds of backgrounds. There are far fewer issues in such schools now pastoral care has improved.

Daughter goes to an outstanding state but I’m getting frustrated she is level 9 predictions across the board but recently her English teacher gave her two level 7 s for assessments and then when she asked what she needed to do to improve to an 8 she was told a 7 is plenty good enough - and instead told her that 7s were fine and she shouldn’t worry about not getting 9s. In my view that isn’t helpful.

There's bullying, drugs and anti social behaviour in private schools. Grammar schools, especially girls, are a hotbed of mental health issues with eating disorders and anxiety the main issues.

My dd was bullied at private prep and is happy and thriving at state comp - just a much more diverse, accepting community.

Groups of teens out and about are terrifying, I agree, but I wouldn't let that put you off state school.

There are no grammar schools at all in Scotland. There are no single-sex state schools in Scotland. (actually, there might be one catholic girls' school, but it's very much the exception).

Your choice in Scotland is state or private. My kids are at a very good state comprehensive and we are more than happy with they are getting. Your "worry" is clearly not a worry at all, OP, as you have gone on to say you are only considering "2 specific girls independent schools".

Just leave the state education to the rest of us plebs who clearly don't want the best for our little darlings.

I went to a bog standard comp in Nottinghamshire, I did very well and went to a very good university.

There are several outstanding comprehensive secondary schools where I live now, that I would be more than happy to send my son to.

Of course you want your little girl to be alright. Secondary full stop feels pretty big and scary, especially if she has additional needs.

We used to live in a part of London with some excellent state schools (very much the expensive sought-after catchment issues), some less prestigious but fine state schools - single sex mostly, and one really undesirable state school. We were also surrounded by famous public schools. And our primary head said the truest thing at the year 6 transition evening - 'never judge a school based on what you see on the bus because they are all awful on the bus'. He was quite right! Kids from all those schools behaved in ways you'd never want your own children to experience, but the reality is that teenagers can be pretty vile.

The public schools did appear, of course, on Everyone's Invited, including examples of the times that the kids from the boys' schools mixed with the ones from the girls schools.

in a ‘fully comprehensive’ area the popular schools with the ‘best’ results (% of DC getting whatever grades) will be clear and reflected in housing prices.

My son got 9x9’s at GCSE (and a few 8’s) and is predicted 3 A*’s at A level. He went to the local comp after not getting into the grammar as we didn’t tutor him to sit the test. If you’re not happy with that then your best option is to move before you need to submit your choices in year 6

That's disheartening.

Our closest state school don't put ANY of the kids in for the higher level maths GCSE. So even if they were capable of high grades none of them achieve it.

This is what makes it almost a no go before I've even gone to the open day for me. Limiting the kids.

But I like the idea that her peers will have parents who feel like DH and I when it comes to education.

This is a weird thing to say - there are parents who are committed to their DCs' education in all types of schools.

I went to a selective private school, as did my 3 siblings. None of us has chosen that for our children. We all understood how important parental involvement is and wanted our children to experience the social diversity that only state schools can provide. Plus there is no way I would want my kids being exposed to the attitudes that were prevalent amongst the people I went to school with.

You mid understood me.

The only private schools I'm considering are those 2. There are at least another 6 close to us but don't hold the same things that we do as important for school life.

At least 5 state schools in consideration.

Any issues we have ever had with our two teens have been caused by other middle class girls from “nice” families displaying cruel or even psychotic behaviour. The vaping / non academic / sweary type girls that some parents pearl clutch about their kids going to school with have always been very decent and friendly to my two.

It's not a weird thing to say at all.

I frequently hear mums at our school gates moaning about their two sons school (local comp)

About how the boys are getting detention every day, but they "aren't bad boys" and it's the schools job to sort their behaviour not the parents as school is boring for them and their sons are just having a laugh, boys will be boys.

Don't take so personally what I'm saying. MN is a very unlikely place for parents who don't care about their kids education to be.

But there are PLENTY of mums at my DCs primary who see school as an "us and them" thing and won't cooperate with the school at all.

Their kids can do no wrong and it's all the fault of the school.

It's damaging enough at primary level, and a lot worse at secondary. Any school teacher will tell you the worst part of teaching is the parents.

A "typical" secondary school is a microcosm of society. Yes, there will be kids who are seriously off the wall. Many others will look at them with somewhere between dislike and pity. There will be others who are broadly decent sorts and who the posters here might perceive as a bit rough round the edges in terms of language etc. There will be others who are there to make the most of their education. By and large, most kids gravitate to their own sort, just as happens in adult life.

My own (completely unevidenced) perception is that the worst preparation for life are the extremes - yes, avoid the deprived inner city school where there may not be too many others like her; but equally avoid the highly selective private school where there isn't anyone who is not. At some point in life, your DD has to become aware of society and find her place in it, and while 11 is too young, 18 is also too late.

Look at (i) the balance of children going there - is it skewed in a particular way and (ii) the track record for more able - do they actually stretch the most able and conscientious or just leave them to it. And most of all, find a place which makes her feel comfortable and happy and the adults smile at the kids!

We both have amazing parents. Our parents are still together. No abuse. We are loved and our parents encouraged us to love learning from as soon as we could talk. The only difference really is that my parents are very young (early 20s when they had me) and working class and hers are much older (they were in their 40s when they had her) and have more money.

She doesn’t have brothers. There were boys in extracurricular clubs but, by the time she was 16 and in college, boys were pretty much a new concept. Her dad is great, but you can’t really compare a 60 odd year old man (the age he was when she was 16) to other 16 year old boys. This continued into her 20s. She’s learned now, but only because she’s observed more male behaviour since being at Uni and can compare behaviours.