To worry that no state, non-selective secondary schools are good enough.

[SecondarySnob]

I know I am BU. I know there will be loads of people who send their kids to the local comp and their kids do fine and get good results and aren't exposed to hideous language and behaviour daily.

But.

I can't see how that could happen having researched all of the local schools.

Oldest DD is 9yo. So this reality is suddenly hitting me.

We're in a non-Grammar area. (DH and I grew up in a different county and went to grammars)

There's a girls grammar 10 miles away which has its own entrance exam so that's where I'm keeping my fingers crossed for her.

I'm also trying to work out how we can afford private school.

Because I've looked at results, spoken to friends who work in local comps, had them kids pass me when out and about, seen them walking to and from school, seen posts on local Facebook pages.

And I just can't see how my DD would get through 5 years at any of them and achieve what she's capable of and come out happy and confident like she deserves to be.

I don't want her to get straight A*s but I do want her to feel comfortable and supported enough to achieve the best she can.

I know this will get flamed by most. As it sounds horribly horribly snobby. I guess my background of going to a school that expected a lot of us means I was sheltered from the reality of a lot of teenage life.

But I'm hoping there are some mums out there like me who are worried at how secondary schools are.

And if so how did you make it work for your kids? Private education? Moving house?

I went to a private secondary school after being in a state primary. I'd say that behaviour was marginally better than at my sister's state secondary school, but we still had bad language, kids sneaking off for a fag and the police being called.

It was a selective girls' school. I went from being the top of the class to being mediocre. I never won a prize, I never got a commendation and I never felt recognised. My kids attend state school now, and they're often commended and rewarded for their behaviour, achievements and effort. I got none of that.

I wouldn't write-off all state schools.

I wouldn't send my DC to the closest private either. It's also horrendously snobby and has a lot of boarders so she wouldn't have local friends.

The ones I'm considering are day schools with good reputations.

I've not seen that the local comps have shit results and just decided without any research that a fee paying school must be better.

It's that currently the only schools whose ethos' and results are what I'd like are all single sex and selective or private.

Your use of the word comp seems negative before you start. The grammar system really creates a divide and you've been sucked in.

Many people have a preconceived idea of awfulness about the school my kids go to.... until they go to the open day and hear the HT speak and the results pushing above average.

Issue is historically it's been poorly run with issues but now- it's not at all like that. Locally - small area and lots of kids at home time means the kids are everywhere going home and locals don't like it so moan about the children all the time building issues that are much smaller in reality than made out.

Of course there is bullying (see all schools) swearing (see all schools) and behaviour (also, see all schools) but how it's dealt with is what you need to know.

There will be stuff you don't like everywhere. I echo point about selective private girls schools generating issues of their own ( I went to one of these schools)

Look at the school, get in there, observe all the children not just the 'naughty ones'.

I have a sinking feeling you are partly referring to challenging behaviour issues that stem from neuro diverse children - of course you won't get that at your selective schools 😱😱😱

Thanks @Hallyup89

That's a really good point.

My DD is outstandingly academic in her current class. She tends to get one of the end of year awards each year but compared to the rest of the class gets fewer of the weekly prizes as she never causes any trouble and so doesn't need the encouragement.

In my mind I've been thinking a smaller class will mean more encouragement and so she'd gain confidence.

But. I do realise there are a lot of children a lot brighter than her and in a grammar she won't be top of the class anymore. To me that's not important and I won't pressure her to be. But I don't want school to give her that impression.

What she does struggle with is being easily upset/annoyed/distracted by the children who misbehave at school. Her class teacher knows this and so keeps her near the front.

I worry that in a state secondary if she still struggled with that frustration it could hugely affect her learning. But she'll be older then so maybe isn't a consideration.

I had no idea until I came to Mumsnet that the 11+ and grammar schools still existed.

There are no state grammars in Scotland so I can't really relate to that aspect.

What I will say is that looking at overall exam performance of a school is misleading. Online you can see results/progress scores by 'type' of pupil - this includes by sex, free school meal status, and prior educational attainment. The good exam results of many schools are largely explained by the high prior attainment of their intake. Whereas some schools with poor overall outcomes might have very strong performance for some types of pupils and might have much better 'value added' scores. So do consider the strengths of each school carefully.

I would also say that of the students I teach at uni level, on average those who have a private education do no better than those who have had a state education.

Of course it's your choice to go private etc but why start a thread in such a judgemental way - this site covers such a wide area no way would there be one answer.

Were you expecting everyone to agree and say it's ok it's all awful use a private school?

Maybe post the same on the local FB group instead - then you might get a better view.

I grew up in a local area where there were no grammar schools. My parents could never have afforded private schools. I worked hard and got straight As in GCSEs and A Levels. (Before A*s were available!) There will be lots of other bright, motivated students at a non-selective state school, so don't worry!

I am definitely going to be going to the open days and then to the ones we like on non-open days.

Myself and my DD are neuro-diverse. Probably a part of why I'm so desperate for her to have as positive teenage years as I can make them. As she is going to feel like she doesn't fit in wherever she ends up.

Pastoral care at any school she attends is a huge part of what's making me lean towards the favourites I have. Somewhere she will be understood and treated as an individual is hugely important to me.

I went to an all girl school. I left with no idea how to talk to boys, and very, very vulnerable when at university as a result. There were no boys in my family, so I just had no idea at all of boys as normal people, no male friends, just a TV-led idea that all boys were potential boyfriends (1990s TV has a lot to answer for!).

Don't shelter your daughter as much as I was. If you choose an all girl school, make sure she still has plenty of opportunity for friendships with boys outside school.

My DS was offered a private school place, but having local friends and learning to get along with a wide range of people were more important to us. He'll get his grades wherever he goes, it's the life experience we want for him.

You will get a lot of support options in a large secondary. Elsa, counselling, inclusion, send. Big doesn't mean bad.

Definitely don't make assumptions. I was like you 10 years ago though no options available other than my local school.

You're being spectacularly snobbish and ridiculous. You think there isn't swearing and issues with kids who have money?

I've been to both private and state schools, have friends whose kids go to grammar, private and state schools. There is no difference. There are issues, kids don't perform better or worse. If they're bright and put in the work they'll do well. There are drugs, sex, smoking, drinking, bullying - everything.

My son got better GCSEs at our local comp than my friend's daughter did at the grammar school. And I didn't have to relocate and drive them to school.

No quite the opposite.

I realise (and stated so in my opening sentence) that I'm being hugely unreasonable and judgemental and (as I have also said on here) am currently in somewhat of an echo chamber and so wanted outside opinions.

Lots of which I've had and am very grateful for. And am feeling a lot more level headed about what to do going forward.

Luckily (as I also stated) I came expecting replies like yours from typical MN keyboard warriors not understanding hyperbole and just jumping in on the attack.

RTFT

If your DD will need provision to support her neurodiversity, in my opinion it's better in state schools (besides the fact you often have yo pay for extra support in private schools). My son is autistic and the huge "requires improvement" secondary he goes to has been outstanding in the support offered to him.

FWIW I went to a series of private, selective girls schools and had brothers and a great role model in my father. I'd like to say I'd never consider the same for my DD but until a child reaches a certain age, it wouldn't make sense to be so categorical.

However, I don't think single sex education was good for me. It certainly didn't prevent bullying and self-harm (it was pre-internet and social media so that wasn't an issue). TBH, I'd say give things a bit of time. When it comes to making a decision, visit prospective schools - both state and private - with your DD and see how she feels/reacts, consider where her current friends are going and above all, what type of child she is then, as to now.

Will she want good sports facilities, a big bustling school where she can stretch her wings or a smaller one? If you've raised her correctly (and I have no doubt you're a loving parent), she'll have enough self-esteem to thrive in most schools.

"... (DH and I grew up in a different county and went to grammars)..."

"... Because I've looked at results, spoken to friends who work in local comps, had them kids pass me when out and about..."

If we're being snobby about kids at state comprehensives, then we'd be failing hugely if we didn't lampoon the poor level of grammar exhibited by, ironically enough, an ex-grammar school pupil.

If you think bad behaviour and foul language are restricted to comps then you are in for a shock!!!!

Teenagers push boundaries and they all swear and have obnoxious conversations about inappropriate subjects.

I'm run a youth group with kids who mainly went to a 'nice' church primary and now go to grammars, private schools, CE comps the whole spectrum. They all have conversations and swear in a way their parents would not approve of. There is also a nasty tendency, from the grammar kids, to be snobby and look down on those who don't attend a grammar.

You sound a very caring and concerned mother.

Can I suggest - what is even more important than shielding our children from the harder, nastier, and rougher elements in life, is giving them the tools to deal with them, themselves, and also having the lines of communication open with their parents that they feel safe to discuss them, if they feel out of their depth?

It's impossible now, to shield kids from porn, from drugs, from bullies, from social media messaging designed to make a girl feel insecure. . . so it's more important than ever that they feel you're not going to have a fit of the vapours and send them to a nunnery, if you find out that some contamination has occurred!

What I also think is important, is that while a child should not necessarily be given the deciding vote, they should feel their voice is heard, and that they have some input, in deciding what kind of school, and which specific school they would feel most comfortable attending. Because after all, that young person is the one who is going to be spending the next however many years there. Just because it's the most comfortable fit for the parent, doesn't mean to say it's the best fit for the child!

You posted this while I was composing my post... If your DD is ND, I understand your concern. Thriving at school is often about finding your tribe and that might be at a small private school but can also be easier at a larger schools where there's a greater range of personality types.

There are sets. If she's in the top sets there won't be kids misbehaving. My kids school have zero tolerance for misbehaviour at any set.

My gut feels the same as you, have a daughter in yr 7 at the moment. But my head tells me otherwise, so I have to get on with it.

@FrodisCapering but I work FT and where we live there is limited public transport i.e. fine to go north to south but you're stuffed if you want to go east to west. There's no chance I could drive DS the sort of distances you cover and still get to work on time. Do what you have to do but remember the mortgage still needs to be paid by the person doing the driving.

We're lucky that DS' school charters a school bus. I stand by my point that a school 10 miles away will be a hassle. It works well for your DC, but you do need to consider how the rest of the DC's life will fit around that. The OP seemed keen to pin her hopes on a school at all costs. I'm asking her to consider how tired her DD will be after long journeys, especially in later years with homework on top, where her after school clubs are, what transport options she has etc.

Another proofreader who is wilfully ignoring the fact that people make typing errors and that MN doesn't allow users to edit posts.

Sorry you weren't the first to show how smart you are.

Also if you had read, and successfully comprehended, my posts you'll see that very little of my concern is around what my children will gain in regards to grammar skills at school.

It's more that I want them to avoid twats. Which obviously isn't always possible.

What can I tell you? Ds is just finishing at his local comprehensive. He's not a horrible teenage boy, he's a lovely thoughtful gentle lad surrounded by longstanding friends doing [stealth boast] A levels and heading for [stealth boast] University. I honestly don't see how he could have done better. Go and look at the schools and make your decision based on your child. I'll be honest, the other factor I would always look at is the head teacher - I never regretted going for the head teacher at ds's school, she was absolutely amazing.