To tell colleagues what happened with boss? Am I allowed to say if I’m still employed?

[SofieM0]

Grievance at work partially upheld. Advised (by friends, peers, other HR colleagues) not to appeal as it’s basically end of my career, outcome unlikely to change and I’d have to resign anyway.
Grievance against boss so he definitely has influence. It was a drunken verbal and physical attack, witnessed by many. I can’t stay in the job. Feel let down by company not to mention the working relationship is untenable for me.
AIBU to tell colleagues (inc other female direct reports to him) why I’m leaving, am I even allowed to whilst I’m still in employment? What about new employers, can I tell them the truth whilst I job search?
I’ve asked my HR but they’ve said they can’t discuss that until the grievance is formally closed (believe pushing me to not appeal).

Acas. Acas. Acas. Acas.

You can launch a claim while still employed. They have an excellent free advice line but launch of claim has to be within three months of receiving the grievance report or a further wrong.

Call them tomorrow.

@Betty65 yea I’ve just re-read and it says 5 days to confirm the appeal and sum it a letter. ACAS sent me a template so I’ll start with that. As PP said, I don’t think it’ll make a difference but at least the process can conclude.

The agreements you ref are conciliation agreements /compromise agreements. A solicitor will advise you but you may need to complete the process via an appeal first.

Sorry, I did the classic jump in before reading updates. Send your employer a letter saying you want to appeal. It is not up to them to diminish gross misconduct ('he didn't mean it'). I guarantee they will mess it up in the process and everything adds to your acas claim. Take advice from them or a funded service like yesslaw.

Come back here whenever you need :-)

‘He was drunk and didn’t mean any harm’ quote from the outcome letter

He also admitted, as it said in the outcome letter, that it wouldn’t have done it to a man?!

Does this company offer courses in utter stupidity and self sabotage?
Because if not, perhaps they should start ...

Out of interest how many years have you been in employment with the company?

Try

No problem. Happy to chat this through privately x

He was drunk and didn’t mean any harm’ quote from the outcome letter

He also admitted, as it said in the outcome letter, that it wouldn’t have done it to a man?!

How can these things possibly be written in the outcome letter without them accepting that it happened? They have pretty much admitted that it did!

@Puzzledandpissedoff Right...I was exactly your username when I read the letter! Like why on Earth would you say that.

@Betty65 2.5 years
@JennyForeigner I will check Yesslaw now

I am being deliberately vague because this is not a small company, this is household name company - a company that publically prides itself on ED&I.

RestingPandaFace OP said they did admit the three incidents which were witnessed - it was the two which weren't that they (not surprisingly) denied

SofieM0 obviously don't put anything identifying, but can I ask what industry this is?

So they have admitted the witnessed incidents and upheld
The others (non-witnessed) they won't uphold (I assume this is normal practice & hope I might just take the outcome) even though reasonable doubt suggests they are true given all the other evidence.

Bloody hell OP, take them to the bloody cleaners. Absolutely awful outcome. So they're fine with him abusing and asaulting female staff so long as he doesn't mean it?

It's a sales division of a retail giant (very well known)
I am low rung junior and he is a Senior VP

HR person here, I would absolutely appeal on the basis of him admitting it and the fact that it was witnessed 3 times so even though the other two weren't witnessed, on the balance of probabilities it is likely that the other two did happen. It isn't court, it doesn't have to be proven beyond all reasonable doubt

It also buys you time (you can withdraw your appeal later if you want to) to start discussions about a settlement agreement. It would be in their interests to offer one in exchange for continued confidentiality (including after you leave).

I would also put in a Data Subject Access Request for copies of anything that mentions your name, or your initials, particularly between/manager/HR, or (specified) Senior Managers/HR, (specified) Senior Managers/your manager, or any notes /file notes from the same. Ask for anything in email, teams, WhatsApp, message, written notes etc. DSARs are a pain in the bum to manage, and it sounds like your company is pretty rubbish so it's likely that someone somewhere has committed something in writing that they shouldn't, so it may make them more likely to want to settle

If you do settle, and there is a confidentiality clause you do need to honour it

Did he deny the witnessed incidents?

So he verbally and physically assaulted you in a work setting (even if it was a social event) and they are protecting him?
They should be quaking in their boots.
You could have reported the crime - because that's what it was- to the police.

@BringBackCoffeeCreams I know - some of the stuff in the outcome letter, I wish I hadn't known, makes me sick. It was just banter...

Thanks everyone, I have a note to call Yesslaw, ACAS and my HR tomorrow. I will draft an appeal letter too and I have 2 interviews arranged just in case.

Just for more context as I realise it's still a bit vague...I am low rung junior but that's my choice (I am 38) - I have been in the industry for 20 years and our competitors know me well and we have a lot of the same supplier accounts. This is why I think my work is trying to keep me quiet.

I don't understand their logic - several incidents were witnessed, those should be the focus of their attention,

In a sense, the non-witnessed incidents are no longer relevant, your employer has now indicated thus, by only granting you a "partially upheld" outcome. However, multiple incidents of witnessed abuse shoukd carry significant weight.

I would submit a new grievance, only covering the witnessed events. This could be what you take to Tribunal, provided they happened within the time limit of 3 months less 1 day. Keep your options open, even if ultimately you don't end up in the Tribunal court room, give them every reason to think you intend to.

You have tested their attitude, they've played their hand, now it's your turn to ramp up the pressure. Its like a game of poker. It's not over til it's over - they could still make this monster resign, even if they continue to give you every impression they are sticking by him.

I'm another one in favour of going to the police. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this awful situation. They've even admitted via witnesses that at least one physical assault happened as well as what could be termed verbal abuse.

It's a sales division of a retail giant (very well known)
I am low rung junior and he is a Senior VP

Yes, roughly what I expected: sales, a very senior manager and a company so big they probably consider themselves untouchable

Disabuse them of that idea, OP - and if it comes to a pay-off, at least they can't play the "Can't afford much" card

Hi OP, definitely worth paying for a chat with an employment lawyer, I spoke to one referred by my household insurance, to ACAS and to an expensive firm of solicitors. Eventually agreed a ‘compromise agreement’, was paid 3 months gross pay, given a good reference and agreed never to sue them or discuss it. I did have people I trusted who I told the full story early on, so they made sure people knew what happened. I have several other friends that went down this route, and one or two that went to tribunal for constructive dismissal and won. All of us have still continued our careers, and it definitely wasn’t the end, although it was very scary and upsetting for a long time and apart from in one case the bosses were not affected. So sorry about what you went through, but you’re probably going to need to get some legal advice at this stage and not resign.

Thanks @PrincessPaws 100% will do that tomorrow. And yes that was my disappointment - based on probability, they should have been upheld.

The witnessed incidents were admitted by the company (bc of witnesses) but not fully by the boss - he said 'memories were hazy'
He denied the non-witnessed incidents (obviously he wasn't hazy then...!?)

I have been in the industry for 20 years and our competitors know me well and we have a lot of the same supplier accounts. This is why I think my work is trying to keep me quiet

Yes, that would do it

What a shame (for them) that a number of people witnessed this, so others may well find out anyway

@bowlingalleyblues good point - I do have legal on my house insurance