Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel despondent about feminism

822 replies

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 09:20

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

  • the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
  • the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
  • the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
  • the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
  • the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
  • incels
  • the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
  • the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Lunar27 · 02/05/2022 11:56

@Helleofabore

Outside of MN, I've read about genuinely anti-trans feminists who refuse to recognise trans in any capacity. The discussion, when I made that comment related to why some people don't identify as being feminist, rightly or wrongly, because they don't want to be associated. It definitely wasn't accusatory of MN or anyone here. Are they the bad one's? IMHO yes but that's a personal opinion.

Personally I respect the rights of trans people. However, I don't think there's a simple solution that also respects biological women. There's another post on AIBU where the OP is fighting for a female only rape crisis group. Given there's already a mixed and male group, I'd say this was inherently sensible. In that way all groups are considered.

However, this also seems like further segregation and I'm conflicted with trans men/women feeling less integrated. IMO it's an impossible situation where one or more groups lose out or have to compromise (perhaps unwillingly).

Personally I have no issue with sharing space with trans men but appreciate it's completely different for women and trans women. I don't think that's anti trans but from what I've read, it's almost impossible to have an unheated discussion about it. Hence why I'm reluctant to discuss.

DomesticatedZombie · 02/05/2022 12:04

Lunar27 · 02/05/2022 11:56

@Helleofabore

Outside of MN, I've read about genuinely anti-trans feminists who refuse to recognise trans in any capacity. The discussion, when I made that comment related to why some people don't identify as being feminist, rightly or wrongly, because they don't want to be associated. It definitely wasn't accusatory of MN or anyone here. Are they the bad one's? IMHO yes but that's a personal opinion.

Personally I respect the rights of trans people. However, I don't think there's a simple solution that also respects biological women. There's another post on AIBU where the OP is fighting for a female only rape crisis group. Given there's already a mixed and male group, I'd say this was inherently sensible. In that way all groups are considered.

However, this also seems like further segregation and I'm conflicted with trans men/women feeling less integrated. IMO it's an impossible situation where one or more groups lose out or have to compromise (perhaps unwillingly).

Personally I have no issue with sharing space with trans men but appreciate it's completely different for women and trans women. I don't think that's anti trans but from what I've read, it's almost impossible to have an unheated discussion about it. Hence why I'm reluctant to discuss.

Everything you've just said there would be classed as 'anti trans', fwiw.

Males cannot 'integrate' into the opposite sex category. It's biologically impossible, and sex matters.

I am completely happy to share spaces with transmen or female non-binary people. I am not 'anti trans'; I just don't want males in women's spaces.

Is that really too 'heated' for you?

Lunar27 · 02/05/2022 12:08

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist

Stereotype? Please elaborate.

I'm not sure what you're referring to exactly but please feel free to trawl my other posts. I'm not on MN to argue, demean, goad or be misogynistic. I obviously have my own POV but am probably more aligned with feminism in general than not.

I'm open about being a male and ethnic minority simply because it provides context. I guess it shouldn't but is often relevant to a POV.

Helleofabore · 02/05/2022 12:20

Thanks for clarifying lunar. And yes, as zombie pointed out, your views would be labelled as ‘anti trans’ by posters who buzz by to shame anyone who is also seeking answers.

And there are plenty of them.

And they can never provide evidence only emotional manipulation.

May I ask why, when sex does matter and Sarah’s rape crisis centre is a good example, with a male, and a mixed group, is excluding transitioned males still an issue for you.

Why is segregation when it matters an issue? Why should a transitioned male have any access at all to a female group? Would you say a child’s group could not be segregated from adults? A disabled person specific group could not be segregated so they can have comfort of knowing they can discuss their issues without someone from another category present? What about other protected characteristics? Race?

Why is it deemed that all discrimination is ‘bad’?

Why can’t females have a place to discuss rape away from
all males without this segregation being considered as a negative?

because? Those male’s feelings
are hurt because they are excluded? How respectful is it that those males cannot recognize that sometimes sex matters?

Helleofabore · 02/05/2022 12:25

TruthHertz · 02/05/2022 11:42

Basically this.

If you can’t see the issues that this supposed ‘gotcha’ actually highlights well, that is your own issue.

As a parent of a current teen, I am very happy to have the discussion with you about what is happening from my perspective. Your gotcha is not what you think it is.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 12:26

Oh, no, it would.be too heated. Can't be bothered.

I am a GC feminist. Your sex, your gender, is of little interest to me. In anonymous forums I don't pay any heed whatsoever to race, creed, colour, sex, gender, party politics or any other segregating factor.

You could be a Martian for all I care.

What I engage with is your written word. That's it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/05/2022 12:27

I've read about genuinely anti-trans feminists who refuse to recognise trans in any capacity

I'm not really sure what this means, so I'm not sure if I fall into this category or not. I don't believe there is such a thing as innate gender identity or that it should be used as a more relevant category than a person's sex.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 12:29

I was still pondering that sentence. I have no idea what it means. As we keep on saying here, define your terms and we can talk!

But it could well be that saying transwomen are male is utterly intransigent, not believing, etc.

Helleofabore · 02/05/2022 12:32

But Eresh ‘anti trans’ is like ‘transphobic’ in that it only ever means what activists want it to mean. They can determine words to mean whatever they like and we all have to be kind and accept it.

That is the problem. When every meaning has been destabilised, words such as ‘anti trans’ and transphobic lose meaning too.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/05/2022 12:36

If people think I'm "anti trans", I'm pretty meh about it though. It's better than being gullible, a liar or a doormat.

Lunar27 · 02/05/2022 12:39

In that case I'm definitely not anti trans as I fully accept a trans woman and man for being exactly what they identify as.

How this works on a practical level is the difficult bit. It shouldn't be but clearly is.

Helleofabore · 02/05/2022 12:42

Lunar27 · 02/05/2022 12:39

In that case I'm definitely not anti trans as I fully accept a trans woman and man for being exactly what they identify as.

How this works on a practical level is the difficult bit. It shouldn't be but clearly is.

Right..... so you are definitely 'not anti trans' .... yet have failed to comprehend that your understanding that there are practical application difficulties makes you exactly that in many activists eyes.

Please understand, 'we' don't think you are 'anti trans' but by acknowledging there is this pesky difficulties ... you actually are. I hope you understand.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 12:43

Lunar27 · 02/05/2022 12:39

In that case I'm definitely not anti trans as I fully accept a trans woman and man for being exactly what they identify as.

How this works on a practical level is the difficult bit. It shouldn't be but clearly is.

So you believe they have changed sex and, in the case of the vast majority of transwomen, retain their genitalia of birth. And you can't see why that is problematic for women?

A very male centred view.

Helleofabore · 02/05/2022 12:47

So, just to clarify. You believe transitioned males are females and transitioned females are males? You believe that humans can change sex materially?

And you don't believe that females, women, should have the right to be able to maintain their definition of themselves as being separate from males (because the meaning of women IS sex based despite what philosophical rabbit hole you might want to live in) and to maintain their definition of 'woman' for their own needs. Do you believe this of any other protected category... or only sex?

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 02/05/2022 12:48

But of course it should be difficult. a man who identifies as a woman is still in fact a man because there are times when sex matters

when a man identifying as a woman wants to attend a rape survivors group for women or to be included on programmes designed ti rectify decades of sexism by increasing womens participation or wants ti play on a woman’s sports team there is be definition difficulty because they’re not a woman, they’re a transwoman ie a man and sometimes biology really matters

we spent years arguing for third spaces & got shouted down repeatedly with nodebate. Consequently things are now bloody difficult- it didn’t have to be that way but that’s not womens fault

Helleofabore · 02/05/2022 12:50

And if only sex, why only sex?

Are you aware of why you are happy for the word 'woman' to be redefined and not any other protected characteristic? Have you actually thought about it in any depth at all from your perspective as a man?

Helleofabore · 02/05/2022 12:53

And tell us lunar... what do you think about male inclusion in the female category of sport?

If you are happy for males to be included in the female category? Are you also happy for adults to compete against children? For 20 year olds to compete against 80 year olds? For a person with no visual impairment to compete in the category for those with visual impairment?

DomesticatedZombie · 02/05/2022 13:00

'anti-trans feminists who refuse to recognise trans in any capacity'

What does 'recognise trans' actually mean? Trans people exist, that is undeniable. So what you mean is 'deny that transwomen are literally women'?

Well, yes. Otherwise the word 'trans' wouldn't exist.

Or do you mean 'deny innate gender identity'?

Again, I'm female, I don't believe this makes me especially 'feminine' or otherwise. I don't know what 'feeling like a woman' actually means, outwith bodily functions. To me, 'gender' is a set of stereotpyes (girls like pink, boys play with cars) that I can choose to live in accordance with, or not.

Or do you mean 'deny that it's possible to change sex'?

Again, yes. It's not possible. People can wear what they like, act how they like. Even have plastic surgery. It doesn't have any bearing on their sex.

TruthHertz · 02/05/2022 13:01

I really wouldn't care about sharing bathrooms with a 'traditional' transsexual but overall I don't think sexes should be mixed in regard to changing rooms. The stonewall 'I've got a huge beard but feel like a woman' type can GTFO. 😂 These are just blokes who rely on women being overly conscientious. Most blokes who saw these guys try and follow their daughters into the changing rooms would be like "you're taking the piss, mate".

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 13:02

Now now ladies!!

This is becoming nasty. A pile on. Haranguing. Battering the poor man with our transphobic views.

Be nice!

AlisonDonut · 02/05/2022 13:04

Lunar27 · 02/05/2022 12:39

In that case I'm definitely not anti trans as I fully accept a trans woman and man for being exactly what they identify as.

How this works on a practical level is the difficult bit. It shouldn't be but clearly is.

What do you mean 'fully accept'?

If i said i was a unicorn would you fully accept me as a unicorn? What is the difference?

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 13:04

TruthHertz · 02/05/2022 13:01

I really wouldn't care about sharing bathrooms with a 'traditional' transsexual but overall I don't think sexes should be mixed in regard to changing rooms. The stonewall 'I've got a huge beard but feel like a woman' type can GTFO. 😂 These are just blokes who rely on women being overly conscientious. Most blokes who saw these guys try and follow their daughters into the changing rooms would be like "you're taking the piss, mate".

So.... what did you mean when you typed

I fully accept a trans woman and man for being exactly what they identify as.

DomesticatedZombie · 02/05/2022 13:05

I think that was Lunar, Samphire?

DomesticatedZombie · 02/05/2022 13:06

Apologies for battering anyone with anything, that was accidental. I think it's probably lunchtime.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 13:09

DomesticatedZombie · 02/05/2022 13:05

I think that was Lunar, Samphire?

Oops!

I seem to have melded them into one poster.

My apologies!