To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

I also notice that lunar disengaged when the real life repercussions of that ‘it is too difficult’ gets posted. Women’s prisons, rape crisis centres and sports.

So, the poster gets to disengage with the knowledge that they personally don’t have to deal directly with it.

I'm younger than Owen Jones, Jameela Jamil, Suzi Ruffell (trans activist comedian who got very upset by Nic Williams advocating for single-sex sport) and so on. I checked on wikipedia and everyfink.

I can only presume that's what happens, Helle. People shrink from cognitive dissonance. It IS uncomfortable.

Yes. It took me years to fully confront that my support of fashionable trans rights also meant supporting women's prisons to be less safe and supporting the violation of incarcerated women's human rights.

I know that until I saw the confirmation that was Maya Forstater's employers position of agreeing that Maya had some very valid points that were not 'transphobic', but there was absolutely no way that Maya could express those points that was not considered 'transphobic' that I thought people who 'respected trans people AND females' were able to have conversations.

Seeing this, 'I will continue to give my respect and dignity to those (men and women) who identify as they have. I will neither challenge trans men to share my space any more than I will challenge trans women to share your space.' is just another version of that clanging dissonance. But at least Lunar is honest. They cannot understand the feminist position, and nor can they ever have empathy for the women who suffer under the impacts of what Lunar believes in.

This is just the cherry though....

For the record my daughters are feminists and I would say that my views align more with theirs than theirs with mine. That might not go down well with you but is really not worthwhile going on about it given you're GC.

Because I hold a belief that is different to lunar (and have indicated that I am happy to have a discussion and provided some starter discussion points), I am considered not worthwhile to have that discussion.

Who said 'no debate' had started to disappear?

Well colour me shocked that lunar has exited stage left with an air of saddened martyrdom because we’re all so meeeaann without actually answering any of the difficult questions

Oh, I'm sure it's not running away. Lunar was very happy to share lots of info on torque. I'm sure he will be back to explain all about how men's wishes matter more than women's.

It is remarkable eyeballs to see it replay over and over. Like posters think they are so tolerant, so nice, so tolerant and so right. But can never answer the hard questions. Because either those answers would show that those posters are not pure enough or because they have reacted purely on an emotional level and not on an evidenced, fact based, and scientific basis and they understand this when they realise they cannot answer the questions honestly.

just like the English sports council and the IOC have admitted you cannot have fairness ‘and’ inclusion. You cannot have empathy for both males who transition ‘and’ females by ‘fully supporting’ those males unlimited access to female’s right.

It must be hard for people who view themselves as feminists to admit.

I mean, it was hard for the OIC to admit, or easy, they just put the onus on other organisations.

Once you see it though, you cannot unsee it.

Well, that's the crux of it.

That's what broke through the dissonance.

I think there should be zero abuse in prison, and that includes male prisoners. But we can tackle abuse in men's prisons without putting anyone male in women's prisons. We can set up facilities for trans people without compromising women's needs.

It's all very simple. Separate units for trans prisoners, and building regulations for new buildings/buildings undergoing renovation. You can even push to solve the issue without legal means- a major charity could run a Trans Friendly Scheme, in which businesses and public buildings would gain accreditation if they had a separate unisex single-occupancy toilet and changing room.

But for this to be pursued, it was necessary that people believed women's wishes mattered equally. It turns out they did not think that.

If your daughters believe what you believe they're not really feminists. They're women who subscribe to a watered-down liberal creed that those of us who are older, and are really concerned about changing things for the better (indeed, who have changed things for the better for your daughters) don't accept as feminism. They are like a contact of mine who works day-in, day-out, with female victims of violence and DV — and yet still insists that her refuge should be a place where men who self-ID as women can live. This is a kind of be-kind virtue-signalling bastard 'feminism' that centres men and not women. As far as I'm concerned no one who believes this should go unchallenged when they self-ID as feminists. Feminism has women as its focus, full stop. Your faux feminism is as fake as a transwoman.

If your daughters believe what you believe they're not really feminists. They're women who subscribe to a watered-down liberal creed that those of us who are older, and are really concerned about changing things for the better (indeed, who changed things for the better for your daughters) don't accept as feminism.

Interesting approach to uniting feminism. Telling a whole section of feminists that they can’t be feminists because they don’t agree with your brand of feminism seems like a sure way to competent alienate them.

It completely alienates people when I tell them their occasional consumption of fish means they're not vegetarians, too.

Your faux feminism is as fake as a transwoman.

Pointless and nasty.

Is feminism a brand then? Like Coca Cola?

Feminism is for and about females all females that's it.

I don't understand Lunar's last post.

I will neither challenge trans men to share my space any more than I will challenge trans women to share your space.

Does he mean challenge in the sense of a dare? He won't dare trans men to share his space ...

Or does he mean 'who' instead of 'to'? He won't challenge trans men who share his space ...

For the record my daughters are feminists and I would say that my views align more with theirs than theirs with mine.

I've read this a few times now. He agrees with his daughters more than they agree with him?

I took it as his daughters are even more unquestioning of males changing sex and accepting that those males are entitled to be treated as females for everything.

So, I took it that his daughters would accept a transitioned male as their ‘women’s officer’ at uni, or in their organisation, or in their political party and that that male would absolutely represent their best interest. (Despite us seeing the times this has happened, all that has happened is that women’s officer deplatforms women from speaking about or protesting about their needs if it involved their body etc. such as Bergdorf did and at the unis this has happened at). And that males should be included in female sport categories. And that if they are nominated for an award that was meant to acknowledge the effort that females have made to overcome negative sexist discrimination, a male who had at least had the opportunities offered up as a male until they transitioned would deserve to be included and even win that award… despite them having x number of years as a male.

I also took it that lunar and his daughters do not believe that females are still discriminated against from birth. As many of us mothers can attest still happens, despite plenty of effort and investment to prevent it. (Hence when Pp’s post a cartoon about STEM as a gotcha, we roll out eyes. YES! Fuck off. We know in detail why daughters are rejecting STEM. A fucking cartoon about it as some sort of gotcha fails to actually understand just as the poster who seems ignorant of the reasons)

I also guessed that those daughters, from the way he said it, would be very happy to have a male in their rape crisis group, their breastfeeding group, as the person taking their Pap smear, as the person looking after their own daughters (his grand daughters) at school or guide camp (where we know that a transitioned male can ‘check’ on the girls in the showers etc).

That is how I interpreted it. But I could be wrong. I mean, I asked a load of questions as did others, and was told that apparently lunar’s answers were covered in my post where I suggested what the answers ‘could have been’. And was told since the answer was covered, they wouldn’t engage further.

To be honest, if my child was unquestioning accepting of this type of belief, I would feel that I failed to teach them to do their own research and evaluation and to critically think it all though. We have taught them to never just take what someone says is a ‘fact’ as a fact without checking. Without going to original sources if possible.

And if they feel uncomfortable in a situation, get the fuck out. Don’t stick around because it is kind, or that that person says they are ‘allowed’ there.

Strangely, after the "face like a slapped arse" and oh, what was it, all the rape threats from trans activists, and all the activists condoning incarcerated women being raped, that doesn't even register with me as nasty.

If that is "pointless and nasty", I've been entirely desensitised to it. Regrettable. I think the only answer is for trans activists to shift the window of acceptable discourse back, by clamping down on rape threats from their own side and speaking out against women being expected to share space with convicted rapists.

Can you get on that, so I can become a more sensitive person again?

The TRAs you're talking about are scumbags. If I see it, I'll call it out.

I'll also call out transphobia when I see on here. I would expect you to too. Because you're not anti-trans, are you?

And I'm categorically not a trans activist. I agree with 90% of what is posted on here on the subject. But shitty comments aimed at trans people and not the related ideology do no-one favours.

Did you read that link and comment? Did you speak a word of condemnation?

I'll place it again: female prisoners forced to share showers with intact males

No. But you had the energy in your fingers to call out someone for being "nasty". Priorities, innit.

I am very pro-welfare of trans men, especially that they are not placed in men's prison, so no, not "anti-trans". And especially young female transitioners with autism, because it's a subject I know a lot about. I am insisting on carrying on breathing while being female, so I will be classified as "anti-trans" though. Only some people get to be "who they say they are".

No. But you had the energy in your fingers to call out someone for being "nasty". Priorities, innit.

Yes, actually.

On the subject of STEM and that tedious gotcha cartoon, I just listened to this great interview with Gaye Chapman. I knew about AfterEllen and Chapman's campaigning on behalf of women and especially lesbians but I didn't know about her work as an elecrician - she's a Senior Electrical Inspector for City of LA. She describes very well the problems women face in this industry, even at her level.

Well, that's refreshing. You've gone for trying to style it out that you cared more about women saying that transwomen aren't women than you do women being forced to share communal showers with males.

It is so much better than a stuttering denial. But I have priorities too, and mine are sexual assault, violence and threats of sexual violence and so on. Women's words aren't worse than that, and I won't pretend I think so.

P.S. I don't care whether someone tells someone else that the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't real, either.

If by 'uniting feminism' you mean I and other second wave feminists who actually got things like women's refuges set up, who've encouraged women and girls into STEM (I'm another who has been a lone female in the construction sector for decades), who's marched to reclaim the night, who's womaned helplines, maintained abortion rights when they came under attack in the 80s, pestered every MP I've ever had on issues that affect women... if you mean that we need to dial it down, accept males who self-ID as transbians in lesbian circles, kowtow to men in the WEP, put a man's feelings ahead of women's needs, go swivel.

As for the 'nasty' comment, I'm a 60-something dyke. I've been called 'nasty' and every other misogynist insult known to man (and some women) for decades. I'll wear 'nasty' with pride, along with everything else that's been thrown at me.

This bit from the article above is quite apropos, really. Because when we accept that women's lack of deference towards male transitioners is worse than male transitioners' actions, the precedent is set for women everywhere else. Including in prison, where they can't even simply avoid male transitioners without the males being allowed to use the mediation system to punish women.

extract

On her second day in a English prison, Linda was having a private conversation with her cellmate, an Eastern European woman, “C,” who is a survivor of trafficking. They were talking about a transgender prisoner, who C said “looked like a man.” Linda confirmed that that individual was male.

Just as she was explaining the policies that allow men to be housed in female prisons to C, a prison guard came up to them. The officer told Linda and C that their “attitude” was “hateful and transphobic” and it would not be tolerated, as it was “against the rules.” According to Linda, C was “visibly upset” with the man’s presence in the female prison and the policies that put him there. Another woman joined them to voice her discomfort about the male transgender prisoner, and, after that, the officer spoke to Linda and C in private, in their shared cell.

“We were basically warned that this hateful behavior was against some rule and we were at risk of adjudication if it persisted,” Linda told 4W. “How is a private conversation between two women about a man hateful!?” She says that she stood her ground with the officer, opposing the rule that houses men, and the incident has been written on her file about “behavior” and “interactions”. Linda believes that this was an intimidation tactic to silence her. “It can be used against you,” she said. “Not once did this officer take into account two women with our own past traumas, and how things affect us.”

And an astounding, horrifying number of women in prison have previous head injuries, which affects your cognitive ability to play linguistic games. But no-one cares about the inequitable burden being placed on them.