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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel despondent about feminism

822 replies

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 09:20

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

  • the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
  • the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
  • the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
  • the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
  • the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
  • incels
  • the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
  • the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

OP posts:
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TruthHertz · 02/05/2022 22:52

If you continue to listen, the ‘younger generation’ will start to tell you and your daughters that they are not happy with going along with this. Despite having best friends who are trans. Because they have started to see the impacts.

I'm afraid this isn't what I'm seeing and dare I say is wishful thinking. The younger generation are still painfully woke, hate 'terfs', and think JK Rowling is a monster.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 02/05/2022 22:53

The younger generation are still painfully woke, hate 'terfs', and think JK Rowling is a monster.

not all

LangClegsInSpace · 02/05/2022 22:54

TruthHertz's posts sound like she just swallowed 'Lean In' whole. We should all shut up moaning and pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. It's an odd direction to take for someone criticising feminism for talking about the proportion of female CEOs.

I haven't seen many feminists going on about CEOs, board members etc. Most of us appear to be more focused on women with the least power. The stories from women coming out of prison are horrific.

DomesticatedZombie · 02/05/2022 23:01

TruthHertz · 02/05/2022 22:52

If you continue to listen, the ‘younger generation’ will start to tell you and your daughters that they are not happy with going along with this. Despite having best friends who are trans. Because they have started to see the impacts.

I'm afraid this isn't what I'm seeing and dare I say is wishful thinking. The younger generation are still painfully woke, hate 'terfs', and think JK Rowling is a monster.

There's an interesting survey just been done on these questions.

If you scroll down, the third table is divided by age. I would upload a jpeg, but since the site upgrade there's not really any point as they come out so small.

wingsoverscotland.com/voting-for-people-who-hate-you/

tl;dr - the kids are not on board with genderism.

Helleofabore · 02/05/2022 23:16

I'm afraid this isn't what I'm seeing and dare I say is wishful thinking.

You can dare say it. Why wouldn’t you say it? However, seeing the increase in these young women on social media and at the protests it is unmistakable. You also should consider the young Olympians speaking up (or the weightlifters who refused to comment.)

The growth of these young voices on tik tok is happening. Just as the growth of the voices of the detransitioners is noticeable.

So, no. I disagree with you that it is wishful thinking. Besides, I also pointed out that many posters have also relayed their own experience, similar to my own, that was starting to have a family or experiencing that while some things have improved, it hasn’t really improved that much, that meant a change in position. It IS happening and will continue.

It is happening for many reasons.

Even the extreme activist posters have stopped posting the lie that the overwhelming majority of young people are fully supporting.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/05/2022 23:19

Da yoof are not a monolith, but the gender-critical amongst them are some of those with the most to lose from exploring their true thoughts. They are in universities with ideologically obsessed staff in their late-30s who can and will mark them down for saying "woman" in an essay and are at risk of social ostracisation from their peers (which is especially awful at an age where you're all flatsharing) or in the workplace, trying to establish their careers.

I know multiple uni students, male and female, who don't dare say anything of what they actually think at the uni LGBT club.

LangClegsInSpace · 02/05/2022 23:21

Those are very interesting results

Helleofabore · 02/05/2022 23:30

I should also point out that it was found that the age group 18-29 is currently the most intolerant in the UK. They will quickly remove someone from their life who doesn’t align with their views. This means there is a social need to remain quiet and they all know this.

This makes the young people speaking up so remarkable for now. They know the pressure to conform is huge.

cps.org.uk/media/post/2021/cps-publishes-landmark-survey-by-dr-frank-luntz-on-politics-economics-and-culture-wars/

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/05/2022 00:21

People of a certain mindset talk about what the youth think, as if young=always right, and society always improves. You can be forgiven for believing that they actually trust the youth/gen Z. They really don't. The moment the current generation of youth depart from the party line, out come the mockery, putdowns and general incredulity at their foolishness. Witness how Novara Media reacted to observations suggesting that gen Z, exposed to more extreme pornography at a younger age than any prior generation in history, might think sex without strangulation sounded sufficiently sensual.

Why is Gen Z So Sex-Negative

Pluvia · 03/05/2022 08:45

Lifted from that article:
This kind of utopian longing is voiced by one of Srinivasan’s male students, who – sounding eerily like a 1970s lesbian separatist – reportedly asked “whether it was too utopian to imagine sex that was loving and mutual and not about domination and submission".

I find the mocking incredulousness of this pov in the article (which seems from a quick reading to be written from a sex-positive stance) sad. There are so many posters on AIBU and the Relationships threads for whom unloving and non-mutual sex is something that's routinely expected. I think it's refreshing that some young people are questioning what they see in porn and choosing to think about sex differently.

Pluvia · 03/05/2022 09:33

This just came up on my partner's Twitter feed. It's a quote from Helen Saxby:

If we say 'pregnant people' instead of 'pregnant women' abortion becomes a people's rights issue and not a woman's rights issue. And then you can't complain if men decide.

This is what the liberal feminists don't get. They don't see where being kind and inclusive will lead.

Pluvia · 03/05/2022 11:56

Roe v Wade overturned in the USA. This is what you get when when you take your eye off the ball and assume things won't go backwards. This is where being kind and including men in areas of life and work that mainly affect women leads.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 03/05/2022 12:01

Pluvia · 03/05/2022 11:56

Roe v Wade overturned in the USA. This is what you get when when you take your eye off the ball and assume things won't go backwards. This is where being kind and including men in areas of life and work that mainly affect women leads.

No, this is where religion and conservative/right wing politics comes in, there will be plenty of republican women cheering this on

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 03/05/2022 12:30

No, this is where religion and conservative/right wing politics comes in, there will be plenty of republican women cheering this on

100% this, there was a tweet sometime ago that summed up the American Republicans attitude to abortion brilliantly (see pic).

To feel despondent about feminism
YouAreNotBatman · 03/05/2022 13:06

I’ve been reading about South Korean radfem’s who have opt out dating men or having sex with them, or having kids and getting married to men.

Honestly, it just sounds like a good idea.
I wish that kind of thinking would be more global.

Pluvia · 03/05/2022 16:51

JustAnotherPoster00 · 03/05/2022 12:01

No, this is where religion and conservative/right wing politics comes in, there will be plenty of republican women cheering this on

How many women in the Supreme Court? 4. How many men? 8.

Pluvia · 03/05/2022 16:54

Whoops: turns out that three of those shown as Supreme Court Justices are retired. So 3 women and 6 men.

Ratrick · 03/05/2022 17:26

@Pluvia

The court is currently split 6 Republicans to 3 Democrats.

Republican presidents have deliberately and openly appointed judges who believe Roe v Wade should be overturned. Republican presidential candidates, including Trump, have campaigned on the basis that they would appoint anti-abortion justices so that Roe would be overturned.

This isn’t about a room of mostly men and some women giving careful consideration to the issue of abortion rights - it’s a room where the majority who currently occupy it were appointed, at the behest of the Christian right, so that this exact decision would come to fruition.

TruthHertz · 06/05/2022 21:23

YouAreNotBatman · 03/05/2022 13:06

I’ve been reading about South Korean radfem’s who have opt out dating men or having sex with them, or having kids and getting married to men.

Honestly, it just sounds like a good idea.
I wish that kind of thinking would be more global.

Isn't this just female MGTOW? 😂

2TheLighthouse · 06/05/2022 23:43

I think the difference is that male MGTOW type groups are actually, basically, incels who do anything but leave women alone; they feed on hate.

Some women just genuinely want nothing at all to do with men.

I’m sure there are similar groups of men - who just don’t want anything to do with women - but they’re not your MGTOW types drumming up hatred; they’re just quietly avoiding women which is of course fine 🤷‍♀️

OP posts:
Crazykatie · 07/05/2022 08:37

There have always been groups of men who don’t socialize with women at all, historically, they were common in the military, women just did not figure in their lives.

DomesticatedZombie · 07/05/2022 10:27

Well, just popping in to say how much the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial is making me feel despondent about bloody everything right now. The false equivalences, the disparity between believing Depp over Heard, the gleeful taking-apart of character, the jubilant MRAs crowing about it all ...

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