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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel despondent about feminism

822 replies

2TheLighthouse · 18/04/2022 09:20

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

  • the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
  • the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
  • the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
  • the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
  • the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
  • incels
  • the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
  • the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

OP posts:
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SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 10:31

Torque is a result of leverage and is what's generated by the application of force

Please don't feel you have to dumb down your explanation so far as make it meaningless. All that 'tangential' 🙂

It means rotational force. Twisting, screwing. And some of us, those with science based degrees, know how to describe it, harness it and even teach it!

Helleofabore · 02/05/2022 10:32

I also don’t know many posters on this board who would like to only focus on; ‘uphold the rights of females to maintain single sex spaces, representative postions, protections against discrimination due to our sexed bodies, equal opportunity in education and sports and safeguarding’.

Well, who would like to not have to fight for any of it really. But certainly not have to fight for safeguarding and single sex spaces and get back to the others.

But here we are. And to do so seems to be classed as being ‘anti trans’ when the reality is that it is ‘anti MALE’. Because ALL females are included in the above.

It is again a glaring weakness in labeling people discussing these issues as ‘anti trans’. Those people also seem to forget about the transitioned females.

… and they forget or never even considered how many parents of the current cohort of female trans people post on these boards to also discuss and organise to protect the rights of those females too!

Helleofabore · 02/05/2022 10:38

FFs

I also don’t know many posters on this board who would like to only focus on;

should be

I also know many posters on this board who would like to only focus on;

And for clarity, to get back to fighting for women’s needs without having to define women or to be forced to redefine ourselves to suit any male.

Lunar27 · 02/05/2022 10:38

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 10:31

Torque is a result of leverage and is what's generated by the application of force

Please don't feel you have to dumb down your explanation so far as make it meaningless. All that 'tangential' 🙂

It means rotational force. Twisting, screwing. And some of us, those with science based degrees, know how to describe it, harness it and even teach it!

I wasn't dumbing it down. It's how I'd describe it to anyone as it's exactly how I was taught.

Perhaps it's taught differently depending on whether you've a physics or engineering background.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 10:43

Or even biomechanics!

Torque is always a twisting force. No matter what its application.

DomesticatedZombie · 02/05/2022 10:53

So: 'gender' issues are to feminism what torque is to leverage.

Feminism has to deal with both gender and sex disadvantages - the things that affect women due to their biology.

Biological sex differences are the simple force.

'gender' is stereotyping (masculinity/femininity - arbitrary rules applied to people on the basis of their sex. That is leverage, and torque - extra pressures that are sometimes tangential and sometimes parallel.

DomesticatedZombie · 02/05/2022 10:54

gender certainly seems to screw things in the wrong direction, anyway.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 10:58

Yes!!! 💪👏😃

Helleofabore · 02/05/2022 11:05

😆

Lunar27 · 02/05/2022 11:08

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 10:43

Or even biomechanics!

Torque is always a twisting force. No matter what its application.

I agree but people's definitions largely depend on how they were taught.

I described it to a PP who was unsure. It really doesn't need to be corrected or dissected.

For example, in every engineering text book I own, torque is never described as a twisting force. Probably because a moment is the product of a force. I attach a snippet from Roark's formulas of stress and strain, which is an engeering reference in aerospace. I confess that it's a bit abstract but illustrates my point. Even my university lecturers never described torque as a twisting force.

To feel despondent about feminism
2TheLighthouse · 02/05/2022 11:11

I really am so disappointed that no one has been able to explain how MN feminists are anti-trans. I’ll stop going on about it now as it’s fruitless. But it’s so, so frustrating.

OP posts:
SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 11:14

And still the desire to correct, be correct continues...

@2TheLighthouse I know. The whole 'anti trans' blether is laughable. That's why they always apply torque when asked to explain how FWR posters are 'anti trans' 🙂

DomesticatedZombie · 02/05/2022 11:22

2TheLighthouse · 02/05/2022 11:11

I really am so disappointed that no one has been able to explain how MN feminists are anti-trans. I’ll stop going on about it now as it’s fruitless. But it’s so, so frustrating.

It's an emotional argument not rooted in evidence or logic. That, I presume, is why nobody can ever discuss it.

Lunar27 · 02/05/2022 11:24

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist

I believe you were the one accusing me of dumbing something down and how you're perfectly capable of teaching it. I don't disagree. But anyways.

For the record I never accused anyone here of being anti trans. Happy for anyone to re-quote a previous post. I just commented that there were feminists that are. Big difference given I don't profess to know what your exact POV is.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 11:30

I don't see where anyone has said that you have @Lunar27

Or did you take my using the word torque in comment about it as being aimed at you?

It wasn't. It was simply an amusing comment, based on what has been discussed on the thread.

Not all about you!

2TheLighthouse · 02/05/2022 11:32

@Lunar27
I don’t think you directly accused any individuals here of being anti-trans, no. But I do think you referred to the FWR board as having anti-trans sentiment. And I dispute that.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 02/05/2022 11:32

‘Lunar27 · 30/04/2022 08:20
No fear of feminism here. Not in the slightest. There are definitely aspects I don't agree with and strongly dislike (anti trans and lack of black/minority female inclusion for instance) but threatened? Definitely not.’

Hence* *why I asked the question ‘what do you define as anti-trans?’

Maybe you are unaware of the many posters calling women and men on MN ‘anti trans’ who seek to ‘‘uphold the rights of females to maintain single sex spaces, representative postions, protections against discrimination due to our sexed bodies, equal opportunity in education and sports and safeguarding’.

That* is why I asked. *

Lunar27 · 02/05/2022 11:40

@SamphirethePogoingStickerist

I'm a man. It's always about me.

That's a terrible joke so apologies on both counts!

TruthHertz · 02/05/2022 11:40

My point was that it's ironic that people who don't choose traditionally male jobs are often the ones moaning about it.

TruthHertz · 02/05/2022 11:42

Basically this.

To feel despondent about feminism
To feel despondent about feminism
DomesticatedZombie · 02/05/2022 11:43

TruthHertz · 02/05/2022 11:40

My point was that it's ironic that people who don't choose traditionally male jobs are often the ones moaning about it.

moaning about what?

DomesticatedZombie · 02/05/2022 11:43

Oh, I see. Jobs. Okay.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 11:48

😃

Start again @Lunar27

Seriously, if you see even the smallest amount of fuckwittery in TRA TWAW and removing the ability of women to say no to men in female single sex spaces just stop posting for a while and do more reading of threads here.

Then come back and ask questions rather than choosing to assert stuff, as quoted, that is just regurgitation of crap thrown at women who oppose the dismantling of women's rights.

That starts with things like not using terms like 'anti trans' and to believe women when they tell you that you have misunderstood stuff like that.

And also not to assume that all other posters are female. There are, as I have already said here and elsewhere today, many long-term male posters who never announce their sex, a few of whom may never have said so here, two spring to mind immediately. You aren't the only male voice, but you do seem to fit into one of the stereotypes of men who post here. Is that what you intend?

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 02/05/2022 11:49

TruthHertz · 02/05/2022 11:42

Basically this.

Again.... Huh?

DomesticatedZombie · 02/05/2022 11:55

I think Truth's argument is that feminists are all talk and no action.