To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

It feels like we have made gains in some things but losses in others; in reality I think misogyny has just adapted to find other ways to remind us of our second class status.

I think the extreme sexual objectification represented by the list you have written is an example of how some men seek to control any attempt by women to define themselves. You wanted sexual liberation so we'll turn you into a collection of holes for our sexual gratification. Its a societal level madonna/whore complex. We are seen as incomplete men, not complex fully human, multifaceted individuals.

For every man who protected Savile, and others like him, there will be women (and some men) utterly discredited by accusations of victorian prudery. Nothing has changed in this regard, in fact the overton window continues to inch towards normalisation of sexualising children.

It's the proverbial boiling a frog only now we think it's progressive to groom primary aged children to think extreme objectification of women is normal and abuse of those calling it out is a worthy social justice cause.

I think the future is going to be very difficult for women to navigate and we will have to redo lots of work we've already done. However I do think women are amazing and we will succeed and we will keep repeating this process for as long as we need to.

This is very depressing. I have a daughter and she is aware of some of the issues facing females. Feminism is viewed with skepticism as I don't think people truly understand it also, it has definitely got entangled with self id and trans issues. Women's rights are always a second thought. I don't know how we change the patriarchal views held about women.

So many old fashioned and misogynist views are held about women. These views hold us down and don't allow us to reach our full potential.

As a small example girls at my dds school are excluded from certain sports because you know they are 'boys' sports. Also the lack of access to toilets due to covid meaning girls having their periods often have to ask several times to use the toilet and then state in front of the class why they need to go. I was quite impressed when one girl told the male teacher it's because she was on her period. His face apparently was a picture.

What can we do when everywhere you look it's men in the top jobs, who are deciding on female safe spaces or not as is the case.

@emuloc why can't i bring it up?

It is so divisive. And i understand that black women face racism but how rejecting feminism helps, i do not know.

Money is power. Not a magic wand, but it gives some power to reject a bad situation.

Financial independece and benefit systems that take motherhood in to account are not going to harm black women, so black women rejecting feminism for not tackling racism is depressingly divisive.

Agree with trying to keep this a wider thread, it just trans-focused. FWIW I do agree with what people are calling ‘the MN feminism’; the posters on the feminism boards are some of the most well-informed, sensible posters I’ve ever read.

But I want to address the wider, historical attitudes to women that not only persist but have become darker and more mainstream.

• not just trans-focused, I meant to say

"Once again [I] demonstrate [my] prejudice'

Um it's confusion and maybe betrayal not prejudice. I am confused when white women reject feminism too.

Your "once again" comment makes it sound like i have been all over mumsnet relentlessly on this subject when the truth is there was one other thread about karens karening. I posted on that yes. One. Other. Thread.

@JoyLurking9to5

"Once again [I] demonstrate [my] prejudice'

Um it's confusion and maybe betrayal not prejudice. I am confused when white women reject feminism too.

Your "once again" comment makes it sound like i have been all over mumsnet relentlessly on this subject when the truth is there was one other thread about karens karening. I posted on that yes. One. Other. Thread.

Yes you commented on that thread. I read them. The thing is when posters write things, they reveal a lot. Enough said.

It’s the well meaning failure, at primary school level, that’s has made me realise how far we have to go.

Football taking over the playground, and no more skipping games or other play leader stuff as the play leader is now employed to stop the boys arguing over football. Worse, my dd (who plays for a girls football team) spent about a year breaking in to the clique, to be ‘allowed’ to play. At the cost of a lot of bruises and shoves and being deliberately excluded.

Splitting PE lesson teams boy/girl, when the year is 2/3 boys and so the girls always lose, and the boys gloat.

Setting for maths in Y5, and it somehow being that the top set is almost entirely boys. But this hasn’t prompted a review of what’s gone wrong in maths teaching for girls further down the school.

Meanwhile, the class reading books and themes are designed to appeal to boys and feature male protagonists, on the basis that otherwise the boys won’t engage in English.

This is a naice school in London suburbs, which is incredibly focused on diversity. But this is a complete blind spot for them.

@emuloc what a meaningless comment.
All I've revealed is that I want an society that is fairer and safer for women and a benefit structure that supports women to not be trapped by childcare and not to be not left losing all the freedom to work and earn and save. I said this on that last thread too.

The person who wrote ''karens karening'' revealed a lot. And it was depressingly divisive.

That’s so true Ululavit public spaces so quickly become male by default. It starts very young so by the time girls become women it seems reasonable for example to tell women to stay home if theres a spate of crime. The sub text always seems to be women are leant public spaces by men they’re not ours & men can take ownership of them whenever they want

@Ululavit so true.

Modern day western feminism is more concerned about being nice to men and making sure they have access to sex, when, where, how and with whoever they want it with.

Women of colour still feel ignored by feminism so clearly the movement is missing the mark on including them and their unique issues.

But all I see and hear about are so called feminists screaming about how empowering prostitution is and how great porn is and if we don’t accept men watching porn then we are frigid prude bitches. Also expecting us to include and center men.

Feminism should be for women by women. Not about selling ourselves to men or normalizing porn and kinks.

I don’t really want any part of this dick centered, dick pandering wave of feminism.

Yanbu

I think maybe women don’t want to face into how truly sick many men are.

It’s too horrific to contemplate that the men we love, our fathers, partners, sons, are the ones wanking off to the abuse of women in violent porn, or using prostitutes, or expecting women to accommodate them on all levels, to be wife, whore (but not too whorey), housekeeper, household manager, the men drugging women, or taking advantage of women in vulnerable situations. The bar for ‘decent’ male behaviour is set incredibly low. It’s not all men - it’s just a massive proportion of men. My guess is over 90% of men think of women as lesser sub- humans, because they are the default and the world is built for them and we are just there for their needs.

It’s much easier to pretend we don’t need feminism and that everything is okay, until it isn’t.

Add to the mix the desperate need to be the cool girl, to have male approval, the constant messaging that a woman’s worth is relative to how makes see her, and the simplistic view of the world many of us hold into our late twenties, and ….. yeah ….. you are definitely not unreasonable

yes, denial is a protection.

@MarshmallowSwede

Modern day western feminism is more concerned about being nice to men and making sure they have access to sex, when, where, how and with whoever they want it with.

Women of colour still feel ignored by feminism so clearly the movement is missing the mark on including them and their unique issues.

But all I see and hear about are so called feminists screaming about how empowering prostitution is and how great porn is and if we don’t accept men watching porn then we are frigid prude bitches. Also expecting us to include and center men.

Feminism should be for women by women. Not about selling ourselves to men or normalizing porn and kinks.

I don’t really want any part of this dick centered, dick pandering wave of feminism.

The feminism I mean is not like this. MN feminism is not like this. If people purporting to be feminists are centring men’s needs, they cannot, surely, be feminists?

What you describe seems to be what has been called Liberal Feminism- so I’m not saying you’re wrong - but to call it ‘current’ seems inaccurate. The feminism we need, real feminism that centres women, is what I see on the feminism boards. But it is scorned by many outside of that forum precisely because society does centre men.

The thing that bothers me with feminism is how hard it is to find solutions.

Changing culture is extremely difficult, there have been loads of improvements. A lot of these threads are very good at identifying problems. But finding a solution (solutions) is much harder.

I'm pretty damn angry about the things on your list too and I've done things about it Tried to educate my students, written to my MP, protested etc but as I also support trans rights I would never refer to myself as a feminist, It's now a label I don't want to be associated with.

@Witchcraftandhokum

I'm pretty damn angry about the things on your list too and I've done things about it Tried to educate my students, written to my MP, protested etc but as I also support trans rights I would never refer to myself as a feminist, It's now a label I don't want to be associated with.

I totally understand your point but I still call myself a feminist because I don't think the anti trans feminists should be able to take that away from me and so people can be aware it's a valid feminist position. (I am not discussing this with anti trans feminists before the pile on starts)

I think that nearly all women do know and have experienced male power in action, but once you see it you can’t go back , and it is indeed. Frightening and shocking, hence the denial and seeking male “ protection” .Eventually we will all wake up to what is going on. Believe me, we would much rather continue to fight for women in this world than concentrate on retaining language / safe spaces/bodily integrity, which we though we had already. But without those, none of us are safe. Men have chosen to make “trans” issues (aka male rights) a priority and none of it benefits actual women. Of course we will be fighting back. It is not a diversion from “true feminism” It is at the core.

I think women are still divided. At one end of the scale you have women who don't see a problem, which generally means there's no problem for them. They are women who benefit from the patriarchy at an individual level, they have pretty privilege, or benefit from being looked after by a man. Or are in a relationship where on a personal level, they hold the power. Or their world is small and populated by only 'nice' men.
At the other end, you have women who conflate emancipation with the oppression of someone else. Occasionally this is men, but more often its other women. So convinced are they of the rightness of their own perspective that they bully and suppress the views of other women who don't share them. These are the women who hold other women responsibile for patriarchy because they wear make up, or are SAHMs or allow their daughters to wear pink.
And in between, well, there's most of us I supppse. At varying stages of awareness as to our own situation and that of other women in relation to men, and at varying points on the continueum from resignation to fury. Largely just playing the cards we're dealt the best we can, and attempting to support and uplift each other where we have the power to do so.

Do you think transwomen should have the right to be seen as women, fiveninefive and witchcraft ?. And if so why this is beneficial to women. And what gives special men this status. Or could it apply to all men? Would this lead to increased equal status for women?

@Monitaurus

Do you think transwomen should have the right to be seen as women, fiveninefive and witchcraft ?. And if so why this is beneficial to women. And what gives special men this status. Or could it apply to all men? Would this lead to increased equal status for women?

And so it begins

@monitaurus

Please respect the boundaries I set down in my comment. I do not wish to discuss this here

@5128gap

I think women are still divided. At one end of the scale you have women who don't see a problem, which generally means there's no problem for them. They are women who benefit from the patriarchy at an individual level, they have pretty privilege, or benefit from being looked after by a man. Or are in a relationship where on a personal level, they hold the power. Or their world is small and populated by only 'nice' men. At the other end, you have women who conflate emancipation with the oppression of someone else. Occasionally this is men, but more often its other women. So convinced are they of the rightness of their own perspective that they bully and suppress the views of other women who don't share them. These are the women who hold other women responsibile for patriarchy because they wear make up, or are SAHMs or allow their daughters to wear pink. And in between, well, there's most of us I supppse. At varying stages of awareness as to our own situation and that of other women in relation to men, and at varying points on the continueum from resignation to fury. Largely just playing the cards we're dealt the best we can, and attempting to support and uplift each other where we have the power to do so.

Brilliant post. 100% agree

I agree with you OP. And with regards the trans issue, there is certainly more to feminism than the trans issue, but if we accept that males can say they are women, then there is no meaningful definition of women, or feminism. It's pretty fundamental and frustrating that we have to keep defending ourselves at this most basic level. But we do.