To feel despondent about feminism

[2TheLighthouse]

I’m almost envious of those women who confidently state that they’re not feminists, because presumably they don’t see much wrong with the state of male/female equality. I, on the other hand, am furious about so many things affecting girls and women that it can get a bit overwhelming.

For example, I watched that Jimmy Savile documentary the other day. It’s absolutely clear as day to me that what happened is what always happens: powerful rich man gets what he wants. Other men shield him. All the wide-eyed disbelief after the event is just total bullshit. Why were people surprised? This is what powerful men and powerful institutions have done forever . Sometimes men are the victims, but more often than not, it’s girls and women who a) suffer and b) know with a deep certainty that they won’t be believed.

Don’t get me wrong- I know there are lots of good men. But girls and women are still at such a colossal disadvantage after centuries of oppression that I find it hard to believe that some women are ok with the way things are. The only way to combat this is to continue the feminist cause - but society has played an absolute blinder on the word ‘feminist’ so that many women believe it to be some sort of weird extremism.

It would be odd, surely, if hardly more than 100 years after getting the vote, following millennia of being officially second-class citizens, women had successfully climbed up to the same status as men in society. Of course they couldn’t undo all that bullshit in one century. Especially with all the pushback.

Off the top of my head, the things that make me furious on a regular basis, in no particular order:

• the leaking of sickening violent, misogynistic porn into mainstream society, so that classes of 15 year olds snigger at the word ‘choke’ (Yes, I’m a teacher)
• the constant unofficial policing of what women and girls can and can’t wear while men can walk around topless as soon as the sun shines because the baseline assumption is that women’s bodies are ‘sexual’ and men’s aren’t
• the way female characters always have to be attractive (real and cartoon) when their male counterparts can be as ugly as you like
• the horror show that is female healthcare, with particular reference to the ‘just get on with it’ school of thought in maternity care, when women have had major surgery etc
• the casual contempt shown by boys towards girls they find unattractive; the assumption that shared space is boys’ space to dominate, either vocally or physically, with the kicking of footballs.
• incels
• the persistence of the sex trade and the loud defence of it by otherwise sensible people
• the bending over backwards to accommodate male sexual kinks

As I said, it’s bonkers to expect millennia of sexism to be undone in a century or so. But what’s disheartening is not that there’s still a way to go, but that so many people literally cannot see that.

Meh ‘i can use a torque wrench’ is just “I’m not like the other girls” by another name. if PP was a teenager they’d be announcing they were non binary

Women can be just as misogynistic as men and it’s very very tedious

To be fair, all of us could use a ‘torque wrench’ if needed. It doesn’t really require instruction past a minute or so. It is actually quite intuitive.

Do I get extra points for also doing my own car repairs at 15 years old? Or knowing how a welder works?

Does it matter how many trailers are on the truck? Do you have a minimum to define just how non conforming you are? Two? Three full size? Will we be worthy then?

Or is a ‘torque wrench’ some kind of signal that I don’t recognise?

If you're not helping, get out of the way, is the phrase I'm thinking of.

Truth, that's great you're happy in your work and secure in yourself. I sincerely wish you well. I hope you enjoy the fruits of feminism that have dismantled stereotypes and legal and social barriers precisely to enable and support women living as they please.

If you could stop attacking/insulting/casting aspersions on feminists (which has fuck all to do with 'writing walls of text on Mumsnet' - although to be fair I believe some of these walls of text have translated into campaigns like 'Let Clothes Be Clothes' and 'We Can't Consent To This' and various others, as well as being read by journalists and others and providing, we are told, a useful source of information for many lurkers), that would be probably the most useful thing you could do. Up to you, of course.

Ultimately, listing all the ways feminists are ugly/boring/horrible/mean/wrong are things we have all heard a thousand times before and these days roll off the argument like the proverbial.

I never understood torque, I have to admit. Something to do with grip? I just ignore it and keep the drill on the middle setting and hope for the best.

I still don't understand quite what this has to do with feminism.

Two of my best friends can drive and command battleships. Are they worthy enough to have a say?

Because both of those women would also call absolute bullshit to your posts. Although, being who they are, they are also well educated and happen to be white. So obviously they failed there. However, both are very strong feminists.

What about my niece who drives mining equipment? If she gets her dragline license like many of my other family, will she be able to be worthy? She would also call bullshit to your posts.

Do you see just how fucked up it is to try to put posters on Mumsnet into any kind of box because of your own prejudices?

I could go on and on. Not because I know ‘special’ people. It is because I know very few people who fit into ‘stereotypes’.

The ‘torque’ just refers to the force applied. We call them ‘socket wrenches’ in my house if that helps.

So, I’ve worked out a couple of things.

Firstly, @TruthHertz is a woman. Genuinely had not realised this.

Secondly, @TruthHertz ‘s basic premise seems to be that feminists are raging all the time and unable to enjoy life, or something. And we should be more like her - able to brush off the sort of statistics that show the patriarchy in action and just be all cool about it.

The thing is, I think most of us do get on with our lives pretty contentedly. I’m furious about the issues I’ve mentioned but I’m no literally always angry. I am too busy, for one thing. But when I do see another depressing headline about girls/women getting screwed over, that’s when I’m most likely to feel a flash of rage (or, to use one of @TruthHertz ’s terms, assume the ‘face like a slapped arse’ expression.

In my day to day life, I try to do my best to combat the issues that I see as unjust - and that can take various forms. I’m not permanently screaming at misogynists, or whatever, but I’m always, on some level, angry about sexist bullshit.

@TruthHertz ’s main point seems to be that we should just not be angry. It’s not much of an argument.

Thank you, yes, it does! Ratchets.

@DomesticatedZombie

Not so much grip.

Torque, or a 'moment' is the twisting effect that results from a force being applied to a lever. Torque = Force x Distance, therefore the longer the lever, the higher the torque.

If you're relating it to a drill/impact driver, the torque setting will control or limit the 'twist' applied to a screw/bolt etc. Useful in some instances if you want to protect the material you're using e.g. plasterboard or soft wood.

Sorry to mansplain but I'm an engineer so is my specialty.

Is torque related to feminism? Indirectly yes, I suppose, although I'm not sure if this is where @TruthHertz was going with her post. We lack female representation and STEM seems to be an area where feminism is trying to make inroads, for obvious reasons. Also, engineering environments are supposed to be highly sexist so we need to improve in this area too.

It's not mansplaining, that's just explaining. Thanks, useful. Although I will have to think about it. It's force applied while something is being pushed in a different direction? Where is the force applied, at the point of leverage or elsewhere on the lever? 'the longer the lever, the higher the torque.' is confusing me a little bit.

I actually do have other stuff to do right now, but I will look into this further.

Now reading this, which has a useful diagram:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque

The ‘torque’ being applied to this thread is because a poster thought it would be some kind of gotcha because they can drive a big vehicle and use a particular kind of wrench and have been telling all us on Mumsnet for days that white, educated women ‘harp’ on with ‘dystophian nightmares’ and ‘melodrama’ and ‘self indulgence’.

And really most of the posts of that poster seems to follow in the ‘all yous women are not womaning right’ theme.

The thing is, MN is full of people with a huge diversity of backgrounds, knowledge and experiences, and it is only a foolish person who tries to stick anyone in the MN box.

I am hoping @Lunar27 you might answer this though.

@DomesticatedZombie

No problem. It's a seemingly abstract thing but quite easy really.

If you have a nail you're trying to remove, then a claw hammer is basically a lever that helps to remove it. The force applied is your hand pulling at the top of the handle. The lever arm is the length of the handle. If you tried to remove the nail by just tugging on the head it'd be virtually impossible but the lever converts the force into a moment that helps to pull the nail out.

Alternatively, if you're trying to change a wheel on your car, you might use a breaker bar instead of the stupidly short wrench that usually comes with the car. A breaker bar is essentially a much longer wrench, which generates more twist than a shorter lever.

So many instances in the home!

Door handles.
Doors.
Spades.
Taps.
Hand whisk.

Happy to draw a diagram if it helps mathematically.

Sorry I missed that.

I'll be honest and decline as it's just too hot to discuss and I'm not here for an argument. Being MN, I appreciate you'll know full well what the contrasting arguments are for/against trans and I know full well that MN is GC. I probably shouldn't have posted it as an example and being male too also needs to be taken into account.

No man planned Patriarchy?

FML!

Of course no man planned it. If you exclude people, sorry, men, as recent as Napoleon Bonaparte. No man, in antiquity or any modern era, passed any laws that banned any woman from taking part in education, various workplaces, all workplaces outside the home, politics,.etc etc

Oh! Except poor women of course. They could work. From sex work to domestic slavery, poor women could definitely work.

But they all must have chosen to do this. As, just like you said, no man eve actually constructed a patriarchal society.

No... wait... history is calling with a multitude of examples of when such a thing actually did happen

Pshaw!

I get levers. 'Torque' is in addition to leverage, as I understand it. A rotational motion applied against the direction of leverage. This is all dim memories from physics class, though.

Ok Lunar. Thanks.

I expect then you are also open to the point that if wanting to uphold the rights of females to maintain single sex spaces, representative postions, protections against discrimination due to our sexed bodies, equal opportunity in education and sports and safeguarding is to be labeled as ‘anti trans’… what might the trans movement that seeks to dilute or erode these rights and protects be labelled in logic?

MN is an open platform on the internet. If you cannot have a discussion here that is based on evidence and facts and not prejudice and also not telling women what they should be allowing, maybe that is something also to consider.

If there is one thing I discovered about women who post about this issue on MN, it is that they are very well read on the topic and the debates here very well informed, from every single walk of life. And there are a number of transitioned male posters on the sex and gender discussion board as well.

I find the use of ‘anti trans’ labels will get deleted by MN just as soon as any other negative generalisation. Because it is just that. A negative, uninformed generalisation that has been deployed often to shame and silence women discussing their legitimate concerns. And you have used it here on this thread.

Torque is a result of leverage and is what's generated by the application of force.

It depends on what you're considering. From physics we're taught action/reaction. Torque is no different so the applied torque will follow the same direction as the applied force (tangentially naturally). However I think you're referring to the reacted moment, which will be the same magnitude but opposing in direction.

I expect then you are also open to the point that if wanting to uphold the rights of females to maintain single sex spaces, representative postions, protections against discrimination due to our sexed bodies, equal opportunity in education and sports and safeguarding is to be labeled as ‘anti trans’… what might the trans movement that seeks to dilute or erode these rights and protects be labelled in logic?

A hundred times this! It’s so galling when people throw around the ‘anti-trans’ criticism and are unable to justify it by any evidence whatsoever. At least @Lunar27 has had the good grace to admit that he has nothing to back it up!

The fight for feminism will never be helped all the time you have women appearing half naked or naked, for money. The times I read on here about men being blamed, but not women for prostitution/escorting porn etc. How on earth can showing your body be empowering? There is a vast difference between being FORCED into the sex industry to those who CHOOSE to do it. I'm not going to blame men for all the ills on earth, whereas feminism seeks to do that. There are some rationale feminists, who want equal rights but there are others, who, in my opinion, make a mockery of it.

if there is one thing I have learned about women (and men) who post on this issue that should be.

It is mostly females though. And occasionally we even get transitioned females coming on to give their opinion.

I find the use of ‘anti trans’ labels will get deleted by MN just as soon as any other negative generalisation. Because it is just that. A negative, uninformed generalisation that has been deployed often to shame and silence women discussing their legitimate concerns. And you have used it here on this thread

exactly

i don’t know any posters on here who are anti trans, that always suggests to me that it means anti trans people

if it doesn’t mean that then it would be helpful to know

(having said that honestly i think loads of words are changed on here, like GC…some people think it means critical of gender stereotypes and some think its means hate trans people and wants to erase them)

I'll be honest and decline as it's just too hot to discuss and I'm not here for an argument.

But this place is built on discussion. Often heated, angry, detailed, repetitive discussion. But it is what it is!

Being MN, I appreciate you'll know full well what the contrasting arguments are for/against trans and I know full well that MN is GC.

And I know that you know full well that women here are not "anti trans" per se. Not anti trans individuals, we don't insists they don't exist, shouldn't have rights etc. We simply insist that any rights any trans individual has do not come at a cost to the rights of women.

I probably shouldn't have posted it as an example and being male too also needs to be taken into account.

Why? Have you not noticed that some of the long time GC posters here are male? They don't tell us they are male. Their posts don't declare their masculinity. They are often utterly indistinguishable from the many female voices here.

You are not special here. Just talk to rather than at. Stop defending your personal self against the words of posters who are discussing whole cohorts and classes of people. Mostly try listening, thinking about what has been posted in response to you. Ponder the reasons so many women think that any and all males need to respect female decisions about female spaces and services.

In short, shut your mouth, open your ears and allow your brain to think! You never know, you might end up in the same situation many of us here have. Changing your mind based on actual data rather than amorphous and emotional input.

@Labscollie

There is a vast difference between being FORCED into the sex industry to those who CHOOSE to do it.

It may not be as clear cut as you want it to be. What woman in good mental health, with a decent support system and other options would choose sex work? I’d hazard it’s a vanishingly small number.

Blaming women for their oppression is a popular choice for some, but it rarely stands up to scrutiny.