DD gaslighting me/missing stuff

[BelleClapper]

I genuinely feel like we’re going a bit mad here.

Our house is fairly chaotic, we both work long hours and have kids 18,17,9 plus dogs. So everyone’s a bit in and out and there’s no real structure. So that’s the background.

I earn tips at work and keep them in a jar. I count it when it looks full and last month (?) had £140. Also DH had a random two pound coins on the kitchen side, I had a fiver on my bedside table.

DD (17) is currently not working or at college. We’re off her case because it wasn’t getting us anywhere but we’ve stopped giving her money.

The fiver and two random coins have gone. She is denying any involvement. I can’t 100% say we haven’t moved it or one of the other kids have. But my money box now has £40 in it Again, feel a bit mad because we do chip into it for like ice creams at school or bus fare for DS for work. But it does look like it’s depleted far too much.

Tonight, and please forget any judgements for smoking because I KNOW, she popped in for ten minutes with the boyfriend to get changed before going out; I went to smoke after they left and found one cig in my pack, now I’m not that on top of things but I know I would know if I was down to a few.

I’ve sent her a text and got a barrage of ‘I can’t believe you think I’d do that’ back.

I honestly feel like I’m losing it. I can’t directly accuse her because she just tells me I’m scapegoating her. I can’t be 100% about it because we are a bit sketchy about leaving cash etc around. But also she has no funds but still manages to go out all the time and it all adds up.

How do I approach this without calling her a filthy thief? She is 17 and on the cusp of doing what I did as a teenager; moving out and living rough for a few years because parents are So Awful so I’m trying to tread lightly but I also don’t want her to become accustomed to petty theft.

All advice welcome. My last thread went to shit and got replicated in a zillion tabloids so I’m braced for being told I’m an awful parent so bring it. What the actual jeffing fuck do I do?

Cameras

get her on side, you are her mum and she will come round , after all she no doubt needs you >

OP you said that people described you as "off the rails" at that age. Can you talk to DD about yourself, and tell her why you went off the rails, how it affected you and your life, and how you wish you had done XYZ thing instead (if you DO wish you'd done your life differently, of course)

You are a busy family. My house is busy and chaotic also. In our case I think it is partly due to undiagnosed problems for me and my adult and teen children who live here. We can't stick to any plan without being distracted onto something else. Maybe your daughter has difficulty concentrating on things and seeing them through.

So I was one of those entirely ‘not off the rails’ teens as were most of my friends. We had jobs, called parents etc.

The few who were ‘off the rails’ universally had really tricky stuff at home, often overly strict parents.

Why is your daughter actually like this?

I mean - don't call her a 'filthy' anything. I'm seeing that so much on here lately. 'Filthy' thief/cheat/liar.

"I’m trying to fucking AVOID it because it’s what happened to me. It’s my worst nightmare for her"

"........She is, to use the term that was used about me at that age, off the rails somewhat......"

OP can you see how you are projecting onto your daugher? These are just two examples from multiple times on this thread when you have talked about your own past.

Do you ever say things like this to her - about what happened to you when you were her age? That is the worst thing for a teenager to hear because they feel they are not being treated as an individual - not being seen as themselves.

You need to try and distance yourself from whatever happened to you, and focus on what is happening for your daughter. You are two different people in different situations. I know it's hard because you want better for your own child, but projecting and talking about yourself is not helpful - your daughter is wrapped up in HERself and won't want to hear about or focus on you.

17 year olds do this kind of thing, my cousin started stealing at this age to defy his parents but is now a fine upstanding adult with kids and a good job.
The best thing to do would be not to leave money out in front of kids with no money. Lock it away in a very secure safe place and make sure nobody can get at it. It could be your husband for all you know.
Don't leave things lying around.
She will grow up eventually.
If someone left chocolate all over the house I would eat it.

Why was she sacked from her apprenticeship (I ask because I'd be interested to know if there is a wider pattern here, and not just something within your home/family).

You can’t accuse without proof, when you admit you are a bit chaotic. It could be she is taking advantage of your chaos and stealing, but then you need to get a couple of lock boxes and keep the keys on you. Maybe start a note on your phone where you note down what you put in and what you take out. If money is then going missing you can sit all the kids down and discuss it as a clear case of stealing. Without proof your daughter can just keep playing the injured party and you’ll get nowhere.

If you want to keep any relationship with your daughter ( and other kids) do not go down the camera or trap setting route, that is a sure way to lose that relationship you currently have.
Take temptation away from all of them, get everyone together and say you think that things are going missing, and it's hurtful as you are working hard for that money ,do not direct it at anyone.
Then hide your tips,stop leaving money around and hide your cigs
Its not ideal but the only way , the only way my DSS was stopped was by his mum calling the police ..but it had got a lot more extreme than the odd fiver here and there ( heavy cannabis use )

@BelleClapper

The reason I feel gaslighted is because she will look me in the eye and tell me there was no money there. That she hasn’t touched my stuff. That I’m accusing her for no reason. She will do this even when I’m standing in her bedroom holding my hairbrush that I’ve just picked up off her floor. Someone else must have put it there, she says.

So last night when I sent her a text saying, er did you take some fags, and she text back saying no mother, are you drunk, why would I, I don’t smoke (she does), you must have smoked them, then yes I do feel gaslit.

I expect if someone she trusts asked her if she feels gaslit by you, she’d also say yes. It’s clear in her mind that she cannot win with you, so why try.

Stop with the black and white thinking.

I know I’m wasting my time. You don’t want to be happy. You want to be right. I feel really sorry for her. This goes way beyond whether or not she took you cash and fags.

@QueeniesCroft

Why was she sacked from her apprenticeship (I ask because I'd be interested to know if there is a wider pattern here, and not just something within your home/family).

Same reason she was asked to leave college. She simply didn’t do ANY of the work set.

When she was sacked she told us it was out of the blue but then I went through her emails about it and they had given her several warnings and action plans over the eight weeks or so she was there. The same thing happened with college. And school, she scraped through her GCSEs with a lot of help.

I’m obviously now not leaving any money laying around. My cigs were in my bag.

*I expect if someone she trusts asked her if she feels gaslit by you, she’d also say yes. It’s clear in her mind that she cannot win with you, so why try.

Stop with the black and white thinking.

I know I’m wasting my time. You don’t want to be happy. You want to be right. I feel really sorry for her. This goes way beyond whether or not she took you cash and fags.*

I really don’t know how you’ve come to that conclusion from my posts. I am here asking for help.

*I disagree with pps that suggest a trap. If you think she is ‘gaslighting’ you and don’t think it is fair it isn’t setting an example to trap her.

I do however think it is your responsibility to keep your own things safe and out of the way. If it is her, you need to remove the temptation. I understand what you’re saying about her borrowing your make up and straighteners and wanting her to leave your things alone but at least with those items that isn’t happening so in the short term you need a solution.

More than anything it sounds like she could do with the encouragement to get a job and become a bit more financially responsible and have her own money and things e.g. make up and straighteners. What is more important here, being able to prove and catch her or end the behaviour?*

You make some excellent points, @Wrenegade.

I think that challenging/trapping her will be fruitless and could well make things worse, and that at this stage preventing the behaviour by removing temptation is the most straightforward and least dispruptive way of dealing with it. People almost invariably grow out of these behaviours, so the OP won't need to lock stuff away for ever.

I also scent a whiff of scapegoat/golden child. In addition, I think that being a middle one of 3 can be tricky. The eldest is the trailblazer, the benchmark; the youngest is the baby and doesn't have to fight battles because the older siblings have already established precedents, but the middle one is often a bit adrift and has no such role. Sometimes they become passive and sometimes they carve out their own role as troublemaker.

And it's especially hard when there's quite a gap between middle and youngest. The middle has had the "baby of the family" role for quite a few years and then was "usurped" by the new arrival. They often stuggle to find a new role.

I think she needs love and reassurance, OP. Kill her with kindness, lock away temptations and see what happens. Offer her a tenner if she's skint and wants to go out. And buy her her own straighteners!

If you can’t prove everything that u think might have happened up until this point you need to put that aside. The chances are that she has been stealing from you but you are not sure.

However, now you need to put the money somewhere where she cannot find it. You need to keep a running total of what is in the jar. You need to make sure that your bankcards are not accessible. Don’t have large amounts of money in the house.

I say this as someone who has been in your situation

Your daughter may choose to move out - you can only do your best and recognise that some parenting journeys are bumpier than others. Mine is like the fuckin Alps.

It sounds like she is indeed stealing your stuff, money, cigs, etc and then getting aggressive when you notice/mention it.

You'll need to lock up your stuff and/or set a trap. Camera perhaps?

She needs a life plan. No job, kicked out of school, etc. Mooching off of you and stealing isn't a life plan. You need to find a way to sit down and talk to her. Is her dad in the picture?

I really feel for you, OP. She is heading from her current mess into a much more serious one, and you are trying to stop her before she starts stealing outside the home and gets arrested.

Maybe you have to set a trap, just to prove it’s her. And then point out if she did that in a shop or a job, she’d eventually get a police record, which would much reduce her job/life/social options.

@BelleClapper

The reason I feel gaslighted is because she will look me in the eye and tell me there was no money there. That she hasn’t touched my stuff. That I’m accusing her for no reason. She will do this even when I’m standing in her bedroom holding my hairbrush that I’ve just picked up off her floor. Someone else must have put it there, she says.

So last night when I sent her a text saying, er did you take some fags, and she text back saying no mother, are you drunk, why would I, I don’t smoke (she does), you must have smoked them, then yes I do feel gaslit.

I don't think the first paragraph describes gaslighting so much as it describes a typical defensive teenager. Either because she's done it and doesn't want to admit it, or because she's sick of being accused of something she hasn't done.

However I really don't think it's an issue for her to borrow your hairbrush or your straighteners. Isn't that part and parcel of having a teenage daughter? Focusing on minor issues like that isn't really helping your situation, I don't think.

If you really believe she's stealing from you, then lock your stuff up. Keep your cigarettes on you (or in the car or something) and lock your money up in a cash box. I wouldn't leave change lying around in a (what you describe as) a chaotic household and expect it to still be there when you look for it several days later.

Not necessarily because it's been stolen, but because things get knocked off surfaces, forgotten about etc. She may have stolen it, but with three children, two adults and multiple dogs, you don't know for sure. The chaos won't be helping the overall scenario.

FWIW, I was a bit like your daughter when I was her age.

Possibly at 17, but definitely at 16.

I was earning a regular wage for the first time which was entirely disposable, and didn't know how to manage the money I was earning –nobody had taught me systems for tracking and saving and the pressure to 'keep up' with my friends and social circle meant that I spent whatever I had like water.

Then when I realised I'd run out, it felt like the equivalent of being grounded –it was a cut-off from my social life and I didn't want to admit to my mates that I was skint.

I didn't feel like money was something to talk about to my parents –I didn't even really know that there WERE systems for managing money well – and I was ashamed of not having it under control because I knew it meant I was irresponsible.

So I snuck around, I stole small amounts of cash from my parents, and then when I was caught I felt so ashamed that refusing to admit it felt like the only route to take. I didn't know how to own up to something and find a solution (in my case, because it had never been modelled in my house –I'm not saying that's the case in yours).

So I lied, I feigned ignorance... I can't remember ever directly denying something very obvious in the way your DD seems to be, although it's perfectly possible that I did.

It was all rooted in feeling out of control (not in a dramatic way, just not having the tools to manage myself), and the spiral of panic and shame that came from that.

I have no idea if this is a useful perspective for you, OP, but reading your posts made me think of how this must have been for my own mum, and maybe sharing my angle on it as a not-dissimilar teen once-upon-a-time could help somehow.

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

17 year olds do this kind of thing, my cousin started stealing at this age to defy his parents but is now a fine upstanding adult with kids and a good job. The best thing to do would be not to leave money out in front of kids with no money. Lock it away in a very secure safe place and make sure nobody can get at it. It could be your husband for all you know. Don't leave things lying around. She will grow up eventually. If someone left chocolate all over the house I would eat it.

A friend's son did this too. They went down the "lock it up" route after he stole and sold some jewellery and an expensive watch.

He was nearly 19 when his dad took a big chance and got him a job at his workplace. It turned out to be the making of him, he was given responsibility and he really stepped up.

Ten years on, he's been promoted and is now in a management role, is engaged, has bought a house with his fiancee and has a baby, but there was a time when his parents were convinced he'd end up in prison, or worse.

So am I right that this 17yo child has no access to money at all? So what is she supposed to do for anything she needs?

It does seem like in the circumstances that it could be her, but I think you do need to be certain it's not either of the others.

And be more careful about leaving money around.

I would put a camera in your bedroom OP. She shouldn't be in there without you, so I wouldn't feel bad about doing it. If you catch her on camera doing something she has denied, it is time to have a chat about the lying. Good luck.

Also how is she meant to live if you are not giving her any money and she is not working?

She sounds a bit young for her age. If it was a child a couple of years younger, you wouldn't say that they were gaslighting, you would say that they were desperately trying not to get into trouble.

difficult to know what to say. There isn't going to be a scenario, even if you had 100% proof, where you would say "DD you took my fiver" and she would say "yes you're right, I'm so sorry, I'll never do it again.

I understand you feel you should not have to lock your money away. Have you thought that that might be the best way of getting to her though - it will obviously be as a consequence of her behaviour, although you would not need to say anything. Will she not feel ashamed?

It all sounds very chaotic and like there isn’t a lot of love in the household. You need to sort out the bigger problems and then worry about these smaller issues, which are just a symptom of the bigger problems. You mentioned that you had a difficult childhood yourself, please don’t perpetuate this with your children. Your daughter sounds awfully unhappy.