Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

It is not up to Mumsnet posters to resolve the Palestinian crisis. It is up to elected politicians. And when they fail they resort to violence.

First step: admit that the Palestinians are oppressed. Their land has been taken:from the mandate in 1922 through the 1948 war and the Nakba, through the 1967 where Israeli illegally extended its boundaries again and to the present day as Israeli settlers continue to build illegally on Palestinian land.

The argument that this oppressed population should now be encouraged to leave as their lives are so horrible - because of the Israelis - is sickening. As I said earlier - constructive ethnic cleansing.

Israel needs to stop persecuting and start listening.

@Ikeasucks, could you elaborate on your statement about my phrasing sorry I don't know how to copy. Why is stating that the Israeli Government have benefit of a missile defense system and have a much smaller death toll problematic?

[quote joanneg36]@counsellorTroi - I understand that. My question was: what would you have wanted them to do? Literally nothing?

The reason I keep asking is because I'm trying to get a sense of whether those here saying Israel's response is 'disproportionate' actually favour no response at all and/or Israel packing up and leaving.

If you accept that Israel has a right to defend itself, then what exactly does that look like, when faced with an enemy embedded amongst a civilian population.

So going back to the Ireland analogy, how would you have wanted the British government to respond if IRA fighters, embedded amongst innocent civilians, were firing rockets at British cities?[/quote]
The IRA were embedded in the civilians. It wasn’t the army of Ireland.

Britian would do exactly what the Israelis have done - fortify its defences, use anti missies, reinforce its buildings, so deaths and injuries are minimal.
Then it begins talks, stops the emotional rhetoric on both sides and allows the IRA to have a democratic voice. And the poor and impoverished still look to cause trouble but generally providing a big slab of money brings hope and opportunity helps.
Bombing the shit out of them has never worked has it ( otherwise Israel wouldn’t be here again).

Talking about hating Jews or Muslims or blacks or anyone else is old. We are increasingly one planet and this sort of thing affects all of us.

for those pro palastine who argue that there is no connection between antisemitism & being against israel, perhaps you should go online and see about the latest happening in finchley with the many cars waving palestinian flags shouting out of the cars 'fuck the jews, fuck their mothers'. Nice, not anti jewish at all

@GoingOnABarHunt

What do you think about inviting Israelis to live in the UK instead? Not mandatory of course, just grant them all citizenship so they can choose to stay there or come here. We should give a part of our country to them, it would be a charitable and kind thing to do considering what we did was an abhorrent thing to do in the first place. I am sure the UK will provide these people with way more opportunities than what they currently have where they are. I suggest instead of directing our vitriol towards Palestinians who as we all agree suffered from ethnic cleansing and state terrorism in their own country and even (as Wikipedia tells us) to some extent from hate in other Arabic countries let’s as Europeans take responsibility and invite the Israelis to our soil. We could do it to the other nationalities over the world as well, as they many seem to be living in camps for a few generations already due to our country’s actions. I am sure they would quickly adjust here in Europe.

I do know what you are trying to say. Israelis have much better situation than Palestinians, they are currently not living in camps...I think Palestinians in particular Gazans need help way more than Israelis. But it’s true that after WW2 and Holocaust it was exactly the same situation with Jews as I pointed out earlier. And they indeed immigrated, a lot of them came here. They didn’t return to their homes in Germany and Poland and Hungary and they aren’t currently living in camps and shooting rockets at Berlin

@Thewinterofdiscontent I agree with you, that is the only potential route out.

But the problem is, unlike with the IRA/Sinn Fein, Hamas do not want a two state solution, they want the complete destruction of the state of Israel. This is why negotiation with the PLO was (occasionally) just about possible where negotiation with Hamas is not.

It is simply not okay to justify any violence from ‘the oppressed’. Nelson Mandela and the ANC are another example of a freedom movement who achieved their ends without firing rockets at innocent civilians.

@Yawnattack

10% landed and killed 10 people it justifys the murder of 188 people by the Israeli government.

just part of your statement- missiles from Gaza kill Israelis where missiles from Israel murder people

@beethecrackon24995

for those pro palastine who argue that there is no connection between antisemitism & being against israel, perhaps you should go online and see about the latest happening in finchley with the many cars waving palestinian flags shouting out of the cars 'fuck the jews, fuck their mothers'. Nice, not anti jewish at all

Oh FFS. What we are saying that is that being critical of the Israeli government does not AUTOMATICALLY make you an anti-Semite. Just as being pro-Israel does not automatically make you Islamophobic

Of course someone can be anti-Israeli and supremely anti-Semitic too. These people in Finchley are utter thugs and I deplore, condemn absolutely oppose what they are doing.

But you trying to conflate them with those of us on this thread who are arguing for compassion, equality and recognition of Palestinian rights (alongside Israeli rights) is extremely offensive.

This kind of crap only drives the sides further apart with misinformation and mudslinging, than bring them together. It’s a very ill-considered post.

@Ikeasucks, I have always seen it written that terrorist groups kill and governments murder, I am not quite sure why but that is the reason for my phrasing. I don't really understand the difference. I do think both groups are wrong to kill/murder the other group.

Do you consider the current actions of the Israeli government to be proportionate?

The British Government killed innocent people in Ireland and called them terrorists too:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57075661

It was wrong then and it's wrong now

I have to say that I see certain lack of integrity from some posters.

If my family or friends were in Gaza I would do anything in my power to give them opportunity to get out. Because I know that realistically there is not going to be any good solution for them in any foreseeable future. They are stuck on a tiny overcrowded strip of land where violence and crime are ripe. I get an impression that they are not governed by a democratic government but rather by an ex terrorist group, Hamas. What kind of life can you hope to build in Gaza? Are there equal opportunities? Is there freedom of speech?

I would not publish some hypothetical maps of villages that existed 50 years ago where now Israelis have built their cities. Let's be realistic, these villages are not coming back no matter how many rockets they fire and and how many threads we start on mumsnet. I don't think anybody believes this. Real people need real solutions.

If they don't want to immigrate I would at least try and help them financially. Maybe generate opportunities for business to flourish. The advancement of women. One day maybe democracy. But not to try and defend Al Aqsa from Israel by firing rockets, because honestly this is not helping anyone...

The British Government killed innocent people in Ireland and called them terrorists too:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57075661

That put tears in my eyes.
Many arabs I know strongly associate with the Irish struggle due to its parallels with the Palestinian cause.

It’s just nice to have history narratives corrected and lives that were lost acknowledged.

That is the road to peace. Gaslighting isn’t.

beethecrackon24995
It's "rape" their daughters

Vile

Spotify fan JB™️ (@gunnerpunner) Tweeted: Finchley Road. North London. 2021.

Genuinely terrifying. t.co/8I4puROGeA twitter.com/gunnerpunner/status/1393920559243829248?s=20

‘
beethecrackon24995
for those pro palastine who argue that there is no connection between antisemitism & being against israel, perhaps you should go online and see about the latest happening in finchley with the many cars waving palestinian flags shouting out of the cars 'fuck the jews, fuck their mothers'. Nice, not anti jewish at all hmm’

No-one is saying that there is no connection. Some people are anti Semitic just as some people are anti Muslim, anti Christian etc
Just that is is absolutely possible to criticise the state of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians and not be anti Jewish.
I’m not anti Jewish, I have many Jewish friends, and some Muslims and lots of catholics and Protestants. I don’t lump everyone together because I’m neither an idiot nor a bigot.

@deepthinkinggirl Many Arabs do strongly associate with the Irish struggle, but unfortunately the Palestinian cause is devoid of leadership that can achieve a similar aim. As I've said above, Sinn Fein and the IRA were aiming for an independent Ireland. Hamas are not merely aiming for the end of the occupation, they are aiming for the destruction of Israel and all its Jews, and that's before we even get on to their positions on anything else - women, democracy, you name it. They are destroying the lives of their people right now, just as the Israelis are.

They are unequivocally a terrorist organisation and recognised as such and any support for the Palestinians should be prefaced with an acknowledgement of that fact.

Israel will never and should never 'negotiate' with Hamas. 'Never again' for Jews means exactly that. So what real support for the Palestinians looks like is somehow freeing them from their current murderous leadership.

@beethecrackon24995 I don't follow your logic?
Some supporters of Palestine are anti-Semitic so you're saying all are?
Some people support Israel because they are virulently Islamophic and racist but I'm sure you wouldn't be pleased if I suggested you were.

@joanneg36 I'm no Hamas fan but what you've described is a massive over simplification of what they are and also fails to address WHY they are.

Israeli military created Hamas to undermine the PLO and Palestinians like Dr Hanan Ashrawi that were palatable to Western media because she was measured and spoke good English so couldn't be dismissed as a racist nutcase.
theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/

[quote joanneg36]@deepthinkinggirl Many Arabs do strongly associate with the Irish struggle, but unfortunately the Palestinian cause is devoid of leadership that can achieve a similar aim. As I've said above, Sinn Fein and the IRA were aiming for an independent Ireland. Hamas are not merely aiming for the end of the occupation, they are aiming for the destruction of Israel and all its Jews, and that's before we even get on to their positions on anything else - women, democracy, you name it. They are destroying the lives of their people right now, just as the Israelis are.

They are unequivocally a terrorist organisation and recognised as such and any support for the Palestinians should be prefaced with an acknowledgement of that fact.

Israel will never and should never 'negotiate' with Hamas. 'Never again' for Jews means exactly that. So what real support for the Palestinians looks like is somehow freeing them from their current murderous leadership.[/quote]
In practice Israel negotiates with Hamas for quite some time now, and it will eventually negotiate ceasefire for the current altercation, just like it did for the previous ones.

This the reality. Hamas has been ruling Gaza for quite some time now and in fact the Israeli government doesn't want it gone because the alternative will be worse. Just like in Syria, Libya, Iraq, you name it.

naamod.org.uk/
British Jews against the occupation

@Jente

naamod.org.uk/ British Jews against the occupation

But Gaza isn't occupied...

I stand with the Israelis on all this and look at what has been happening against the Jews in England today - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57137151 Anti-semitism has no place in the UK today.