Discussing Palestinian Oppression part 2

[Faffandahalf]

Just starting another thread as the other one is full.

Please keep talking about Palestinian occupation and oppression.

Please follow Palestinian support groups like Friends of Al Aqsa and Mohammed el Kurd (an amazing Sheikh Jarrah citizen) on Twitter and Insta to get info from the ground. This will take you to other sources of infor coming out of Palestine.

Please keep Palestine part of the conversation and on social media so it’s not forgotten about.

Supporting Palestine is not anti Semitic
Criticising Israel is not anti Semitic.

As an aside I have not once seen the previous thread in active after page 1.
So MN have let the thread stand after numerous complaints of censorship but still odd that it never came up as active.

@joanneg36

And the gaslighting returns. Anti-Israel is NOT anti-Semitic. Please reference where we are “quoting” Hamas propaganda.

And the numbers we are quoting are from
The BBC, Sky news, the independent.

I find it disturbing you are attempting to deny news reported in multiple outlets. Especially after the Israelis bombed press HQ in Gaza yesterday.

joanneg36

Can I please negotiate?

Do you believe that the mainstream view amongst the Israeli politicians and those that established the state of Israel is that Jews are superior beings to the non Jews in the “Land of Israel” ? And that the nation of Israel is meant to lead all nations to be an example of morality ?

If you answer that in honest terms, then I will know you’re wanting to reach an understanding. And then I will answer you with full honestly, about the issue of anti semetism with Hamas and its sympathisers.

Because unless you acknowledge the context that we are discussing this under, I won’t accept the Arab world be treated as an extension of the anti semitism leading to the Holocaust. Thereby exploiting the Sympathy of the international community to further sideline the human rights of the Palestinians.

I think people think out loud as they post, it's a chat forum after all, and posters jump on them.
It's a chat forum and what's said here won't be acted out on.

There is a problem and people muse over solutions.

Why fucking hell?

Because your solution is for all the Palestinians to simply leave and give everything to the supporters of the Israeli govt.

The lack of empathy from some here is staggering. And as for the gaslighting; I wouldn’t even be so generous- it’s just talking rubbish which is much easier to spot and call out. It has been, numerous times now.

@BFrazzled

You are conceding that Israel has made life so unpleasant for Palestinians that they are encouraged to leave? Their lives are so utterly pitiful that of course they would take sanctuary in any country which offered them them safety.

If this was employment, it would be called constructive dismissal.

In this case I’m going to call what you have proposed constructive ethnic cleansing.

@deepthinkinggirl - I genuinely have no idea what the view of 'most Israeli politicians' is. I know what my view is: which is that the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank is unjust and should be brought to end, via a negotiated two-state solution, with the Palestinians and Israel both having their own state. And I also believe that is not currently possible, as it was with the PLO, with Hamas in control as they are. And with Netanyahu in charge instead of Rabin.

@JustFedUpOfThis You have misinterpreted my comments. I am not denying the numbers of the civilian deaths in Gaza, or the horror of them. I am asking whether you have considered whether there might be any reason why it could be harder for Israel to bomb straightforwardly 'military targets'?

And finally I am noting that still no-one has answered my question as to how, if during the Troubles, the IRA (also fuelled by a historic injustice) had been firing rockets at civilians in London, Manchester or Birmingham, whether you would have wanted our government to 'just back off?'

What do you think about inviting Israelis to live in the UK instead? Not mandatory of course, just grant them all citizenship so they can choose to stay there or come here. We should give a part of our country to them, it would be a charitable and kind thing to do considering what we did was an abhorrent thing to do in the first place. I am sure the UK will provide these people with way more opportunities than what they currently have where they are. I suggest instead of directing our vitriol towards Palestinians who as we all agree suffered from ethnic cleansing and state terrorism in their own country and even (as Wikipedia tells us) to some extent from hate in other Arabic countries let’s as Europeans take responsibility and invite the Israelis to our soil. We could do it to the other nationalities over the world as well, as they many seem to be living in camps for a few generations already due to our country’s actions. I am sure they would quickly adjust here in Europe.

Although for what it's worth on numbers, here is how the BBC report numbers always, and rightly so:

"Since it began on Monday at least 188 people have been killed in Gaza, including 55 children and 33 women, with 1,230 injured, according to the Hamas-controlled health ministry. Israel says dozens of militants are among the dead.

Ten people, including two children, have been killed by militant attacks on Israel, Israeli officials say."

The reason they are so careful to quote the sources is because they know that the sources - on both sides - should not be trusted without question. People on social media - again on both sides - apply no such rigour.

And finally I am noting that still no-one has answered my question as to how, if during the Troubles, the IRA (also fuelled by a historic injustice) had been firing rockets at civilians in London, Manchester or Birmingham, whether you would have wanted our government to 'just back off?'

I would not have wanted our government to use totally disproportionate force which resulted in innocent people being killed.

@joanneg36

This is what you said

The problem here is that all of you [pro-Palestinians] are literally parroting Hamas propaganda about what is currently going on, from death numbers to ‘civilian targets’ without question.

Which is a clear attempt to smear the comments of those of us who are quoting numbers of civilian deaths from reputable media sources.

So deflecting/lying yet again. Wearisome.

@counsellorTroi - I understand that. My question was: what would you have wanted them to do? Literally nothing?

The reason I keep asking is because I'm trying to get a sense of whether those here saying Israel's response is 'disproportionate' actually favour no response at all and/or Israel packing up and leaving.

If you accept that Israel has a right to defend itself, then what exactly does that look like, when faced with an enemy embedded amongst a civilian population.

So going back to the Ireland analogy, how would you have wanted the British government to respond if IRA fighters, embedded amongst innocent civilians, were firing rockets at British cities?

Israel Govt. has to stop annexing land that doesn't belong to them, allow, encourage and help Palestinian people to live decent lives. If they are attacked they should defend themselves obviously but proportionately. This is not proportionate. They should take great pains to avoid civilian casualties wherever possible, because they can.

@amusedtodeath1 - how do you take pains to avoid civilian casualties? I'm genuinely not being argumentative, I am interested to know how an army takes pains to avoid civilian casualties, when terrorists are literally embedded amongst civilians? I don't know the answer, but everyone here simultaneously seems to think they know the answer, yet can't offer it?

@JustFedUpOfThis Our messages may have overlapped but I answered your questions on numbers above. The BBC and other news sources quote numbers 'according to Hamas' and 'according to the Israeli govt', they don't quote either as indisputable fact, and with good reason.

It’s clear to me that the people of Gaza would be far better of here in the UK or anywhere in Europe. Many would come if we have them chance to escape both the poverty and Hamas and Israeli oppression.

I’ve thought this for years - give those who are tired of the conflict, tired possibly of Hamas and who want a safer better life for their children an option to leave - totally their choice

Israel Govt. has to stop annexing land that doesn't belong to them, allow, encourage and help Palestinian people to live decent lives

This.

@Yawnattack

so you believe that because Hamas are firing rockets into Israel and a small number of them, reports said said 90% were stopped by the missile defense system so about 10% landed and killed 10 people it justifys the murder of 188 people by the Israeli government.

Your phrasing here is a huge part of the problem

'And finally I am noting that still no-one has answered my question as to how, if during the Troubles, the IRA (also fuelled by a historic injustice) had been firing rockets at civilians in London, Manchester or Birmingham, whether you would have wanted our government to 'just back off?'

I would not have wanted our government to use totally disproportionate force which resulted in innocent people being killed.'

Yeah, I second that. As someone who lived through the Troubles IN Northern Ireland I can't even begin to fathom the body count of innocent civilians if the British government started blowing up tower blocks and bombing us night after night. What would that have achieved? It certainly would NOT have stopped the IRA or the other terrorists. It would have been the biggest recruitment drive they'd ever had,

If you kick and kick and kick at someone, no matter how much smaller and weaker they are than you they will fight back.

@adventureswith - so you have also helpfully said what you wouldn't have wanted our government to do. How would you have wanted them to handle it?

... and let's remember, while thinking about the IRA analogy, that it doesn't even reflect the reality of what Israelis are faced with. The IRA were fighting for an independent Ireland, they were not denying British people a right to live in Britain. If terrorists were firing rockets at you and your children, intent on your destruction, I understand now what all of you wouldn't want your government to do. What would you want them to do?

The date is from the Gazan health authority. Of course controlled by Hamas by everything is. How many foreign reporters are allowed, by Israel, into Gaza to provide independent account of what is going on?

So Israeli have conveniently removed any independent reporting ability and can now seek to claim any data is “Hamas propaganda”.

However given what has happened before - such as in 2014 when the Israeli government bombed a UN shelter killing 44 civilians included 10 UN staff, I have very little faith in the numbers of civilian casualties being vastly inflated.

So yes I concede these numbers are not independently verified, but Israel has removed any way of numbers being verified at this point. I hope the UN will be allowed in to investigate when this onslaught is over.

Bookmarking

The British government did back off after the IRA attacks in England it pushed the issue into the forefront and stopped the out of sight out of mind policy of the British government leading with the assistance of the USA to the Good Friday agreement.

I do not know the general opinion of the British public then, I am not British there are some who did not agree with the Good Friday agreement. I think the British government went too far in defending itself then and I think the Israeli government are doing the same now.

While the initial bombing by the Israeli government could be considered justified bombing media hotels and roads to hospitals is not.

I think the Israeli government should rely on its missile defense system and stop all aggression they have gone too far.

Huge parallels between The Troubles and the Arab/Israeli conflict, including 100s of years of back history, they're often studied in tandem.